View Full Version : 10-20 tough turn
Hi all
Here's a hand i played last night where i had a tough decision on the turn.There were two good players in the game and everyone else had very littke poker knowledge.In this hand there were 3 below everge players and me.
UTG limped,MP2 limped i limped with my JH 5s in the sb and the bb called.The flop came Kc 5h Jd. I bet out thinking since they were bad everyone would call but only the UTG called.
The turn was Kc 5h Jd 9c. I bet and UTG raised. Now what do i do? I will post results later.Ice
einbert
03-24-2005, 06:01 PM
Fold PF.
I would 3-bet the turn.
Wow. Its pretty sad when you only get 1 response. Guess this was a pretty bad post.I called the turn, the river was K J 5 9 5 no flush and i checkraised the UTG player who three bet me and i called. He made a gutshot on the turn and paid off my full house.Thanks Einbert for your response.Guess one is better than none. Ice
DemonDeac
03-25-2005, 12:19 AM
heres ur 2nd response
fold this garbage preflop
Demon
Thanks for number 2! Even though this hand is a piece of gabage i think given that these are bad players and i'm getting 7-1 on my call it is an easy call.Remember there is $35 in the pot and i only have to throw in another $5.(Two limpers for $20, the bb and me the sb for $15)
The turn was a very debatable call on my part.The pot was not that big 6bb and there was a good chance he had a straight or a higher two pair. If he had the straight i was a 11-1 dog and there was no way i could make up all those bets on the river and if he had a higher two pair i was in the same position regarding the pot odds.If the pot was bigger my call would have made more sense but i think it was a mistake to have called and i just got lucky.I called thinking he might have a pair with a draw which was a horrible read on my part.Ice
RustedCorpse
03-25-2005, 10:50 AM
Fold preflop. Yeah you may be getting your return, but you can't bet your hand with any confidence on almost any flop. The fact that they "have little poker knowledge" makes it more likely you're going to a showdow, i.e. I want a better hand.
You happened to get hit by a flop in one of the best ways possible, but habitually it's going to cost you money. The fact that you just got hit with this flop is luck and short term thinking.
Rusted
There is no question this hand is a piece of cheese.But getting 7-1 on your money against bad players who play poorly post-flop it's an easy call.What if the pot was laying you 50-1 on your call would you make it then? How about 100-1? Sure these examples are absurd but it drives home the point to take the POT SIZE into account when making your decision.
How big of a mistake can it be to call and play fit-or-fold on the flop? $5.00. And if i hit my hand i want them to go to the river. Look the guy had a gutshot on the flop and called getting 5-1 that was a pretty poor call head -up.But if you feel your going to be trapped by the hand then i agree you should'nt play it. Ice
Jeffage
03-25-2005, 12:30 PM
Just to reiterate what everyone else said...this hand is garbage preflop. In fact, when I see someone who never folds his SB with crap, it is a strong indicator their game needs alot of work (exception is if the game has a 2/3 blind structure, like 15-30).
As for the turn, just call and check-call the river. Likely hands you're beat by: Q10, KJ, K9, J9. He may just be raising a king so you have to look him up, but don't have to cost yourself assloads of chips. And...fold this preflop.
Jeff
stevew
03-25-2005, 12:58 PM
I agree with the others about folding preflop. You happened to get lucky and hit the flop. It's when you get a portion of the flop (e.g. J high flop in your case) where you'll end up with some tough decisions and may lose money in the long run.
So you make no distinction in the sb if the pot is big or not? If 6 people call and your getting 14-1 on your money your going to muck?So if i call there i'm a bad player.
If your in the sb and there is $10,000 in the pot since i have a piece of cheese your going to tell me not to call for another $5.00?Would i be a bad player if i call now?Ice
TheHip41
03-25-2005, 01:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In this hand there were 3 below everge players and me.
UTG limped,MP2 limped i limped with my JH 5s in the sb
[/ QUOTE ]
So I guess everyone sucked in this hand eh? /images/graemlins/blush.gif
Entity
03-25-2005, 01:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
So you make no distinction in the sb if the pot is big or not? If 6 people call and your getting 14-1 on your money your going to muck?So if i call there i'm a bad player.
If your in the sb and there is $10,000 in the pot since i have a piece of cheese your going to tell me not to call for another $5.00?Would i be a bad player if i call now?Ice
[/ QUOTE ]
If there were $10k in the pot, of course I'd call.
But you're making a fallacious argument. $10k would be offering you 2000:1 on a call, and calling with any two cards would be fine in that scenario. Calling getting 7:1 with trash in the worst possible position is not.
Rob
Guess you got me there big fella.Ice
So when would you call? How much does the pot need to be laying you to make the call?Ice
stevew
03-25-2005, 01:59 PM
I will loosen up the range of hands I play in the small taking into consideration the number of players already in...but not to the point of playing J5 off. I didn't say nor mean to imply that you're a bad player. This is an open forum for differences in opinions without personal comments.
Absolutely NO OFFENSE taken and didn't mean to imply it. Sorry if i did. I'm in a gray area with a piece of cheese and am trying to get a discussion going when it would be appropiate to given the pot size to make the call.Thanks for your input. Ice
sthief09
03-25-2005, 02:25 PM
think about who your opponents are. it's 1/2 a SB to him preflop. he's against 2 terrible limpers. don't fold. you're getting implied odds from them sucking. it won't take much of a postflop skill advantage to make up for a slightly loose call. IMO folding is very very very very bad in this situation. he's not against slightly bad players. they are terrible and have little poker knowledge. for 1/2 sb I think you could turn a profit with any 2 cards
sthief09
03-25-2005, 02:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely NO OFFENSE taken and didn't mean to imply it. Sorry if i did. I'm in a gray area with a piece of cheese and am trying to get a discussion going when it would be appropiate to given the pot size to make the call.Thanks for your input. Ice
[/ QUOTE ]
pot odds preflop are tricky. you're not going to see 5 cards most of the time, so you can't compare them to the hot and cold odds. the most important thing to know here is that it's a HALF of a SB. it is so small in comparison to later bets that will enter the pot that all you need is to play better than them.
did you know what types of players they were? players with little knowledge can be completely different, from loose and passive to loose and aggressive
sthief09
03-25-2005, 02:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just to reiterate what everyone else said...this hand is garbage preflop. In fact, when I see someone who never folds his SB with crap, it is a strong indicator their game needs alot of work (exception is if the game has a 2/3 blind structure, like 15-30).
[/ QUOTE ]
context is everything in these situations. two examples: CDC posted a hand where he limped on the button with J4s. if you saw that, would you then assume he's a bad player? you probably would, and that would be a shitty read. second, when I was in Vegas, there was a hand where I was the sb and there was a CO poster, who was new to the table. it was folded to him, he checked, and the button folded. I raised from the sb with 76o (with a tight bb). I ended showing the hand down, and a local pro sitting next to sfer apparently started commenting on how bad I play, because I raise 76o. well, he also made the mistake of nto considering context. I was against a random hand, a sub-random hand, and a tight BB.
Jeffage
03-25-2005, 02:41 PM
The button is much different than the small blind even if you have to put in a full bet. If many limped and I had J4s on the button, I'd consider playing for one bet (as long as the game wasn't that aggressive). Your example is you making a play in a specific situation (cutoff poster checks when all fold to him...he's indicating a weak holding he has no interest in). He called with a piece of shite in the small...b/c he wanted to. J5o? What types of hands to people limp with...hmmm, J10, KJ, QJ, J9, etc. I'd prob complete with 86o here. If it's suited and he played for the flush, ok. The thing is, people who can't fold ABSOLUTE CRAP for half a bet in the small blind are generally bad players and often play poorly postflop.
Also, his argument about what if there was 10k in the pot makes me think he doesn't understand some aspects of the game.
Jeff
TheHip41
03-25-2005, 02:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just to reiterate what everyone else said...this hand is garbage preflop. In fact, when I see someone who never folds his SB with crap, it is a strong indicator their game needs alot of work (exception is if the game has a 2/3 blind structure, like 15-30).
[/ QUOTE ]
context is everything in these situations. two examples: CDC posted a hand where he limped on the button with J4s. if you saw that, would you then assume he's a bad player? you probably would, and that would be a shitty read. second, when I was in Vegas, there was a hand where I was the sb and there was a CO poster, who was new to the table. it was folded to him, he checked, and the button folded. I raised from the sb with 76o (with a tight bb). I ended showing the hand down, and a local pro sitting next to sfer apparently started commenting on how bad I play, because I raise 76o. well, he also made the mistake of nto considering context. I was against a random hand, a sub-random hand, and a tight BB.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even so, J5o is trash, the opponents in the hand do not matter. If it's suited, it's a whole different story. I just don't think J5 is worth fighting over. I wait for a better spot.
sthief09
03-25-2005, 02:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Even so, J5o is trash, the opponents in the hand do not matter. If it's suited, it's a whole different story. I just don't think J5 is worth fighting over. I wait for a better spot.
[/ QUOTE ]
OF COURSE THE OPPONENTS IN THE HAND MATTER. that is the #1 most important factor here. that's more important than the cards
sthief09
03-25-2005, 02:45 PM
ok, well you might be right that he doesn't understand the game well, but anyone who's just saying to fold this hand without considering all the factors doesn't either
sthief09
03-25-2005, 02:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. Yeah you may be getting your return, but you can't bet your hand with any confidence on almost any flop. The fact that they "have little poker knowledge" makes it more likely you're going to a showdow, i.e. I want a better hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
you make money by folding the worst hand and betting the best hand. against people who are likely to go to showdown, you don't necessarily need a better hand. you just need to be a good player.
DMBFan23
03-25-2005, 03:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
ok, well you might be right that he doesn't understand the game well, but anyone who's just saying to fold this hand without considering all the factors doesn't either
[/ QUOTE ]
sigh.
Public service announcement: this thread has been derailed from the turn action of this hand for a decision that, if wrong, is wrong by mere pennies if hero plays well postflop.
when someone asks a turn question, at least answer that question before you throw in AS AN AISDE "I would fold this preflop"
sthief09
03-25-2005, 04:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok, well you might be right that he doesn't understand the game well, but anyone who's just saying to fold this hand without considering all the factors doesn't either
[/ QUOTE ]
sigh.
Public service announcement: this thread has been derailed from the turn action of this hand for a decision that, if wrong, is wrong by mere pennies if hero plays well postflop.
when someone asks a turn question, at least answer that question before you throw in AS AN AISDE "I would fold this preflop"
[/ QUOTE ]
it's not derailed. there is nothing to learn from the turn decision. he provided no specific reads on the players, and it's impossible to give good advice when the guy could be anywhere from loose passive to a maniac. new players all play differently. the standard would be to call down. it's not that complicated. most people won't raise without 2 pair. the turn was an overcard. it probably made him kings up. you can't fold though. what's so interesting and important about this?
what's important here is that people aren't considering their opponents' abilities. whether or not that's worth pennies or dollars here is irrelavent. understanding that, like position, superior ability enables you to play looser is critically important, and it's being completely overlooked by EVERYONE here.
WOA.I don't understand the game well.I told you there are bad players in the game i'm getting 7-1 on my call and i play better than them postflop.Aren't you getting a little personal?
Just out of curiosity do you take pot size into account when making your decisions?It should not be the only factor but it should be a very important factor.My example of the 10k pot size was absurd on purpose to show if the pot was big enough it can be right to call with a piece of trash.Ice
DMBFan23
03-25-2005, 04:11 PM
nothing in particular, there's just a general trend of focusing on preflop decisions in threads askinga bout postflop play.
talking about preflop decisions is cool, but I think we tend to gloss over some postflop plays when we do so. if we're gonna discuss preflop, make sure we're discussing postflop too.
my main point was that "should I fold the turn" is met with "no, you should have folded pf" far too often, IMO, and not "I'd call down, however, I would have folded preflop".
EDIT: luckily, both responses lead to "no, you shouldn't, and here are some reasons why."
sthief09
03-25-2005, 04:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
WOA.I don't understand the game well.I told you there are bad players in the game i'm getting 7-1 on my call and i play better than them postflop.Aren't you getting a little personal?
Just out of curiosity do you take pot size into account when making your decisions?It should not be the only factor but it should be a very important factor.My example of the 10k pot size was absurd on purpose to show if the pot was big enough it can be right to call with a piece of trash.Ice
[/ QUOTE ]
you're kind of right but kind of not right. you're saying that at 1-1 you should fold, and 10,000-1 you should call, so the minimum point between where you should call is the required pot size. but there are more important factors. let's say a weak tight player open limps, and it's folded to you. the BB is weak tight also. well, in this situation, you can make money by just betting any flop without an A or K, so it would be a profitable call, because your opponents have exploitable tendencies. but, if a really tough player open limped and a maniac is in the BB, then you shouldn't be completing for obvious reasons. the players matter more than the pot odds. also, I might be happier to play this hand against 2 people than 4 people. it's easier to steal the pot and the reverse implied odds on your J aren't as bad. in other words, the relationship between value and pot odds isn't always positive. sometimes better pot odds could make the hand less valuable.
in general, pot odds aren't a good guide preflop, because you really don't have anything to compare them too. if you mapped out all the potential flops and opponents' actions and saw how often you'd be continuing on the flop, your implied odds, and average equity, then you could probably compare that to pot odds, but otherwise they're not very useful.
sthief09
03-25-2005, 04:21 PM
yes, in general I agree with you. people like to post and people don't like to be wrong. posting about preflop decisions that they're sure about seems good. postflop decisions are usually more difficult and people aren't willing to risk being wrong.
I post sometimes just to see if someone will prove me wrong. for a while Nate was making me his bitch, by correcting everything I said. it helped me
DMBFan23
03-25-2005, 04:26 PM
cool. I realize when I saw your reply that my post could have been read as "sthief, how dare you [censored] talk about preflop" when in fact that part was helpful.
Interestingly a couple of weeks ago Nate the great posted a hand J7s where it was raised to him in the bb and he called and wanted to know if that was to loose.I believe chrisdaddy chimed in that getting 7-1 he would call. Clarkmeister said he would call not only with J7s but with J7o. I agree completely that the players mean a ton but i have said these guys are terrible and i play better posflop.Granted my position is horrible but but that is more than compensated for by their bad play.Ice
MaxPower
03-25-2005, 04:49 PM
I'm certainly in favor of opening up your starting requirements when you are in a pot against really bad players, but in my opinion J5o is streching it. If it is an error it is a small one. If I am going to play that getting 7-1 its not enough for the players to be below average they need to be bottom 10th percentile.
sthief09
03-25-2005, 04:55 PM
wouldn't people having "little poker knowledge" qualify?
Jeffage
03-25-2005, 04:55 PM
Ice,
This is my last post in this thread. I'm not getting personal, but I'm not going to sugercoat things either. Like SThief said, there is nothing interesting about this hand besides preflop. The turn you're probably beat, but you can't fold. Preflop, the hand is not worth playing..what types of hands to people limp with? I'd rather have 65o than your hand. Is it a huge mistake? No. But the fact that you presented it without even saying it's marginal leads me to believe you do other things like this b/c you think you play better than all of your opponents, and they probably affect your earn. The point of this board is to HELP each other's game...you have to grow a thick skin b/c people are not going to always agree with your play. I was often flamed when I started posting here, but it helped me improve.
As for your second question, I regularly play and beat mid limit games and have played for a long time so I understand pot odds (see some of my other posts where I frequently reference them). That being said, I know I'm not the best player here but do try to give the best advice I can.
Good luck.
Jeff
MaxPower
03-25-2005, 05:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
wouldn't people having "little poker knowledge" qualify?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, if they are the kind of people who can never remember whether or not a flush beats a straight.
If it is a passive guy who will call down with all sorts of junk, yes. If it is a guy who just plays too loose, no.
Even though sfer calls me nit I did raise a really bad limper with K6o on the button yesterday. I'm not sure how bad that is, so who am I to judge. It felt like the right thing to do at the time.
I do think you are making some excellent points in this thread, but so is Jeffage.
irs frank
03-25-2005, 05:28 PM
ice you played the hand very well .
Shame on you IRS frank. You know i played the hand bad and are encouraging other players to play as bad as me.Ice
Jeff
I think you give good advice as i have read your other threads. As a matter of fact i respect your opinion and am very glad you posted. Jeff most of the threads agree with you and almost NO-ONE agrees with me.
The hand is a piece of garbage and it is definitely a marginal situation.The reason i posted the hand was a very good friend of mine who plays very well said he would have mucked the turn and i wanted to see what others thought.I had no idea the pre-flop call would be the topic of discussion.Anyway i think it has been a helpful discussion and hopefully we can take something away from the discussion. Best Wishes. Ice
dblgutshot
03-25-2005, 07:32 PM
You keep saying he stayed in with a gutshot. The only straight i see is open-ended on the flop.
Also, some people are saying the PF call is okay getting 7:1? So if everyone limped in giving you the same preflop odds, are you playing this on the button? Same odds and better position, same trash hand, same bad players.
Your absolutely correct. It was an open ender i should be shot for that. In regards to your question i almost hate to answer but yes same odds with better position and the same bad players i probably would. But it is DEINITELY a MARGINAL HAND and its not a hand that should be played regularly unless the players are BAD and your getting at least 7-1.IMO
I don't want to give the impression to ANYONE that if you look down and your getting 7-1 in the blind you should call with any piece of trash.The players have to be bad or bad in relation to you and you can outplay them postflop.I think the way i posted i gave the impression you should be calling with any piece of garbage if your getting pot odds and that is only part of the puzzle.
I think the overwhelming consensus is it's a piece of trash and get rid of it.Or if your going to do this you have to pick the right situation and there are not that many right situations.Thanks for the feedback.Ice
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