Level 3 ramblings

[Phil Van Sexton]

The steal with A-rag this early (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1993825&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=1&vc=1) post has motivated me to make a post about level 3 play.

We took a poll (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=1774452 ) and people picked level 3 as the hardest level to play. I was a bit suprised. I actually like level 3.

If anyone cares, here is how I play level 3. I'm not saying it's right or even interesting, so feel free to stop reading at any time.

If I have an average stack of 800, I don't do much in level 3. The blinds aren't worth stealing, and you don't have a enough chips to really play a hand to the river. If I get a great hand, I'll play it fast (ie raise 200 preflop, and push on the flop). I'm guessing this is how most people play. If so, I'm not sure why they consider this difficult, but I digress.

As you know, I play more hands than most in levels 1 and 2. This often leaves me with a big stack or a small stack. In either case, level 3 arrives just in time for me.

Why? Because bad players like see the flop. In levels 1 and 2, their limps don't add up to much. By level 4, they usually tighten up. Level 3 is the sweet spot.

If 2 people limp at level 3, there's 175 in the pot including the blinds. Now we're talking real money. A blind steal at level 4 only nets you 150, so the rewards are already higher.

In fact, it's even better than that. In level 4, the BB had to post 100 and usually isn't going to just fold if you min-raise to 200. Therefore you have to risk more.

At level 3, the limpers and blinds only have 50 invested, so a raise to 200 will usually send them running.

Let's say you are in the BB at level 3 with $450 left. 2 people limp ahead of you and SB completes. What do you do? PUSH.

I suppose you could look at your cards first, but your cards aren't really important here.

At least in the 30s, people aren't going to call 450 preflop without a hand (well some do, but I hopefully noticed them already). If they had a real hand, they probably wouldn't have limped. If they make a loose call, you aren't going to be up against Aces, so you'll have a reasonable chance to suck out. I'd much rather push here with any 2 cards than push with KT in MP on level 4.

Let's say you are on the button with 87s at level 3 with $1200. 2 people limp ahead of you. What do you do? Raise to 200.

Again, if they had a hand, they wouldn't have limped. There's 175 in the pot, so go ahead and take it.

Alternatively, you could also limp with pretty good hands (ie AJ) from position. If you do flop something, you are going to get paid off big time. The pot is too big for a short stack to get away from any kind of hand.

If they miss, you can take the pot down without much effort (or much of a hand).

This is how I play a big and small stack at level 3. Many of you probably don't care because you almost always have a medium stack since you fold your first 20 hands. Maybe this is correct, I don't know.

I think about it differently. I *know* I can do damage with a small stack at level 3, so I have no fear at levels 1 and 2.

Don't misunderstand me: I don't play a lot of hands in the early levels. However, when I do play, I don't play scared. If I get TT on the button in level 2, I'm going to raise and I'm going to bet again on the flop the majority of the time. If I lose a few hundred, so be it. I'll just have to work harder in level 3.

[rybones]

would you do this in an $11 tournament?

Ryan

[1C5]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I am going to try this sometimes if I am short or bigstacked on level 3 as I do agree with what you say. Thanks for posting it.

[ilya]

Nice post, Phil.
I think the plays you describe would be somewhat less effective at the (looser?) $20s, and dicey at the (loose) $10s, but if they work nicely at the $30s, I can see why you might be willing to take more risks at levels 1-2.

[Scuba Chuck]

Ilya, are you playing the $33s now! If so, congrats.

[Scuba Chuck]

Philly dog, I concur with your thoughts here with respect to the $33 tables. Level three plays almost like a bubble period. Where many players 'tighten' up in preparation for level 4. It almost seems like a wasted round for them. I view it as a huge opportunity to regain lost chips if I'm short stacked from levels 1 and 2, and to accumulate more chips if I'm already stacked up.

It's interesting that we tend to agree about how we play this stage when medium stacked. In that, I might also just let the round go by if I'm at around the 750-850 level.

But back to my point, I view level 3 similarly to a bubble period. More thoughts?

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
would you do this in an $11 tournament?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played 10s in a while, but I think so. Obviously every tournament is different, so there is no system.

I think the small stack steal opportunities should still be there at the 10s. Maybe you'll get called more, but you'd get called more if you waited until level 4 to steal too.

I might be more conservative with a big stack if surrounded by calling stations. I would imagine there are still opportunities if you pick your spots.

If you try any of this in the 10s, report back with your results.

[Scuba Chuck]

I just grabbed a random game I played recently. Below you'll find all 10 hands from level 3. Any examples of where'd make these moves u suggest?

#Game No : 1788356088
***** Hand History for Game 1788356088 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:10684583 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, March 24, 22:36:13 EDT 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 10: gkramerica1 ( $690 )
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $790 )
Seat 9: JrLaxin ( $2595 )
Seat 2: ronaldpkerr ( $2305 )
Seat 3: blchrist ( $380 )
Seat 4: stormchasrok ( $565 )
Seat 7: turbox79 ( $675 )
Trny:10684583 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Qh 5h ]
>You have options at Table 11790 Table!.
JrLaxin folds.
gkramerica1 folds.
>You have options at Table 11790 Table!.
ronaldpkerr raises [100].
blchrist calls [100].
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
stormchasrok folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
turbox79 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ad, Jd, 9h ]
ronaldpkerr bets [225].
blchrist is all-In [280]
ronaldpkerr calls [55].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ac ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
ronaldpkerr shows [ Js, Ts ] two pairs, aces and jacks.
blchrist shows [ Jh, Kc ] two pairs, aces and jacks.
blchrist wins 835 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and jacks with king kicker.
>You have options at Table 15078 Table!.
Game #1788361232 starts.

#Game No : 1788361232
***** Hand History for Game 1788361232 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:10684583 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, March 24, 22:37:03 EDT 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 10: gkramerica1 ( $690 )
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $765 )
Seat 9: JrLaxin ( $2595 )
Seat 2: ronaldpkerr ( $1925 )
Seat 3: blchrist ( $835 )
Seat 4: stormchasrok ( $565 )
Seat 7: turbox79 ( $625 )
Trny:10684583 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Jh 7s ]
ronaldpkerr: nh
gkramerica1 folds.
ronaldpkerr folds.
blchrist folds.
stormchasrok folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
turbox79 raises [75].
JrLaxin is all-In [2545]
Scuba_Chuck: I don't think ur idea would work here
turbox79 folds.
JrLaxin does not show cards.
JrLaxin wins 2695 chips
see
Game #1788364676 starts.

#Game No : 1788364676
***** Hand History for Game 1788364676 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:10684583 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, March 24, 22:37:35 EDT 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 10: gkramerica1 ( $690 )
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $765 )
Seat 9: JrLaxin ( $2695 )
Seat 2: ronaldpkerr ( $1925 )
Seat 3: blchrist ( $835 )
Seat 4: stormchasrok ( $565 )
Seat 7: turbox79 ( $525 )
Trny:10684583 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 3h As ]
ronaldpkerr folds.
blchrist folds.
>You have options at Table 15078 Table!.
Scuba_Chuck: might work from here tho, lol
stormchasrok folds.
>You have options at Table 15078 Table!.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
turbox79 folds.
JrLaxin raises [75].
>You have options at Table 15078 Table!.
gkramerica1: dam
gkramerica1 folds.
JrLaxin does not show cards.
JrLaxin wins 150 chips
Game #1788367828 starts.

#Game No : 1788367828
***** Hand History for Game 1788367828 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:10684583 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, March 24, 22:38:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 10: gkramerica1 ( $640 )
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $765 )
Seat 9: JrLaxin ( $2745 )
Seat 2: ronaldpkerr ( $1925 )
Seat 3: blchrist ( $835 )
Seat 4: stormchasrok ( $565 )
Seat 7: turbox79 ( $525 )
Trny:10684583 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 5h Kc ]
gkramerica1: 42
blchrist folds.
stormchasrok folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
turbox79 folds.
JrLaxin calls [50].
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
gkramerica1 folds.
ronaldpkerr checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, 4s, Qs ]
ronaldpkerr checks.
JrLaxin bets [50].
ronaldpkerr folds.
JrLaxin does not show cards.
JrLaxin wins 175 chips
Game #1788372248 starts.

#Game No : 1788372248
***** Hand History for Game 1788372248 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:10684583 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, March 24, 22:38:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 10: gkramerica1 ( $615 )
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $765 )
Seat 9: JrLaxin ( $2820 )
Seat 2: ronaldpkerr ( $1875 )
Seat 3: blchrist ( $835 )
Seat 4: stormchasrok ( $565 )
Seat 7: turbox79 ( $525 )
Trny:10684583 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 8h 7d ]
stormchasrok folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
turbox79 folds.
JrLaxin folds.
gkramerica1 folds.
ronaldpkerr raises [75].
blchrist folds.
ronaldpkerr does not show cards.
ronaldpkerr wins 150 chips
Game #1788375898 starts.

#Game No : 1788375898
***** Hand History for Game 1788375898 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:10684583 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, March 24, 22:39:24 EDT 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 10: gkramerica1 ( $615 )
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $765 )
Seat 9: JrLaxin ( $2820 )
Seat 2: ronaldpkerr ( $1925 )
Seat 3: blchrist ( $785 )
Seat 4: stormchasrok ( $565 )
Seat 7: turbox79 ( $525 )
Trny:10684583 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 5s Qc ]
>You have options at Table 11790 Table!.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
turbox79 folds.
Tell a friend about PartyPoker.com and earn $50 & 1000 Party Points. Your friend receives $25!
>You have options at Table 15078 Table!.
JrLaxin folds.
gkramerica1 folds.
ronaldpkerr raises [175].
blchrist folds.
>You have options at Table 15078 Table!.
stormchasrok folds.
ronaldpkerr shows [ Qd, Ks ] high card king.
ronaldpkerr wins 250 chips from the main pot with high card king.
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
Game #1788380185 starts.

#Game No : 1788380185
***** Hand History for Game 1788380185 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:10684583 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, March 24, 22:40:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 10: gkramerica1 ( $615 )
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $765 )
Seat 9: JrLaxin ( $2820 )
Seat 2: ronaldpkerr ( $2000 )
Seat 3: blchrist ( $760 )
Seat 4: stormchasrok ( $515 )
Seat 7: turbox79 ( $525 )
Trny:10684583 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Jh 4d ]
turbox79 is all-In [525]
JrLaxin folds.
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
gkramerica1 folds.
ronaldpkerr folds.
blchrist folds.
stormchasrok folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
turbox79 does not show cards.
turbox79 wins 600 chips
Game #1788382601 starts.

#Game No : 1788382601
***** Hand History for Game 1788382601 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:10684583 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, March 24, 22:40:29 EDT 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 10: gkramerica1 ( $615 )
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $715 )
Seat 9: JrLaxin ( $2820 )
Seat 2: ronaldpkerr ( $2000 )
Seat 3: blchrist ( $760 )
Seat 4: stormchasrok ( $490 )
Seat 7: turbox79 ( $600 )
Trny:10684583 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Jc 3c ]
JrLaxin folds.
gkramerica1 folds.
ronaldpkerr folds.
blchrist raises [100].
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
stormchasrok folds.
gkramerica1: this baby needs to sleep. now.
>You have options at Table 11790 Table!.
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
turbox79 folds.
blchrist does not show cards.
blchrist wins 175 chips
Game #1788386340 starts.

#Game No : 1788386340
***** Hand History for Game 1788386340 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:10684583 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, March 24, 22:41:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 10: gkramerica1 ( $615 )
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $690 )
Seat 9: JrLaxin ( $2820 )
Seat 2: ronaldpkerr ( $2000 )
Seat 3: blchrist ( $835 )
Seat 4: stormchasrok ( $490 )
Seat 7: turbox79 ( $550 )
Trny:10684583 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 3d 7d ]
gkramerica1: she's almost clicked allin 5 times
gkramerica1 folds.
ronaldpkerr folds.
blchrist folds.
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
stormchasrok folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
turbox79 raises [75].
JrLaxin calls [50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6d, Kc, 9h ]
Scuba_Chuck: a natural
turbox79 checks.
JrLaxin bets [300].
turbox79 folds.
JrLaxin does not show cards.
JrLaxin wins 500 chips
Game #1788389460 starts.

#Game No : 1788389460
***** Hand History for Game 1788389460 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:10684583 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, March 24, 22:41:35 EDT 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 10: gkramerica1 ( $615 )
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck ( $690 )
Seat 9: JrLaxin ( $2920 )
Seat 2: ronaldpkerr ( $2000 )
Seat 3: blchrist ( $835 )
Seat 4: stormchasrok ( $490 )
Seat 7: turbox79 ( $450 )
Trny:10684583 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 6c 8s ]
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
ronaldpkerr calls [50].
blchrist folds.
stormchasrok folds.
Scuba_Chuck folds.
turbox79: 25/50 300 chips prety much gave too
turbox79 calls [50].
>You have options at Table 11790 Table!.
JrLaxin calls [25].
gkramerica1 is all-In [565]
turbox79: see
ronaldpkerr folds.
turbox79 folds.
JrLaxin folds.
gkramerica1 shows [ Jd, Js ] a pair of jacks.
gkramerica1 wins 765 chips from the main pot with a pair of jacks.
>You have options at Table 12063 Table!.
Game #1788395428 starts.

[dfscott]

My biggest problem at level three is what to do with small pairs (22-66), particularly when my stack is around 600. I don't feel comfortable calling off 9% of my stack to limp and try to flop a set. However, I can't see raising with them except maybe in LP. Do most people fold these in EP?

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
My biggest problem at level three is what to do with small pairs (22-66), particularly when my stack is around 600. I don't feel comfortable calling off 9% of my stack to limp and try to flop a set. However, I can't see raising with them except maybe in LP. Do most people fold these in EP?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold in EP or LP.

If in LP or blinds and there are a few limpers, you could push, of course.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

If I have an average stack of 800

[/ QUOTE ]

You play $33 or lower, Phil? Why?

eastbay

[Raiser]

Tried some level 3 maneuvering last night.

I get 98s on the button. 2 callers (each with 500ish), I raise to 200 (I have 1400ish). All fold.

Did I do good?

[Scuba Chuck]

That's how you do it. And I think your hand has just the right edge to it. I don't do this with 800 chips tho.

Let's see, you bet 200 to get 175. I think you take this down right here at least 1 in 3 times. And you take it down post flop at least 1 in 3 times. Making this a profitable play, IMO. Win 175 twice, lose 200 once. +t150. You will probably take this down with a 175 bet, btw.

[Voltron87]

If I have no real set value, and the blinds are small, I will fold them. If the blinds are big I push.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If I have an average stack of 800

[/ QUOTE ]

You play $33 or lower, Phil? Why?

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, an example from last night, I get 3 tables of 30/3s going and then the wife drops a baby in my lap. Babies like laptops.

If I were in 3 200s, there might have been some yelling in my house. I'm not earning a living from this, so I'd rather keep the peace. Instead of arguing, my daughter and I just shared the keyboard and I finished up 2,1,1. She is goot at poker.

I'll play higher in the side games because I can just log off at any time. The SnGs I play are for fun (and profit). I've found the 30s work best for this.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Tried some level 3 maneuvering last night.

I get 98s on the button. 2 callers (each with 500ish), I raise to 200 (I have 1400ish). All fold.

Did I do good?

[/ QUOTE ]

You thought I was serious?

Just kidding. Great job. It's tempting to just sit on your big stack. Keep up the aggressive play.

[kspade]

I think you just fixed a big leak (unfortunately only one of several /images/graemlins/crazy.gif) in my game. Thank you! /images/graemlins/smile.gif