AA 10/20 PP, how many bets on the turn?

[DrGutshot]

Villian is TAG 21/15, fairly aggressive postflop, this hand was from a few days ago so I don't remember any specific reads other than that. He seemed like a thinking opponent.

Don't argue preflop, I think not capping when it's heads up against a thinking opponent is +++EEEVVV

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: DrG is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">DrG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, DrG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">DrG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, DrG calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
DrG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">DrG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>,

My options are
a)fold if you're an idiot
b)call and check call river
c)call and lead river, call a raise (this one doesn't make much sense to me)
d)cap and lead river, call a raise
e)cap and lead river, reraise a raise (if you're loco)

-DrG

[Rubeskies]

F.) Call and Check/Raise the river.

[sy_or_bust]

I like option d). I think you're up against a worse PP almost every time, and I wouldn't give credit to 99 without putting in a few more bets.

[BottlesOf]

I like d)

[Rubeskies]

TAG 3-bets preflop so we have that range of hands:
88-AA, maybe 77. AJs-AKs, maybe KQs. AQ-AK.

The way he played if he isn't insane he has 88-AA. There are only 3 ways to make 99 and only one way to make 88.

There are 25 ways to make TT-AA.

Even if we add in the fact that he is slightly more likely to have 99 or 88 because of how agressively he is playing, don't you still think it is very likely that he'll be playing a big overpair this way? Therefore trying to extract the max?

[lostinthought]

I like D because with any overpair I would be really suprised if he didn't call the cap and at least call the river bet.

[sam h]

D is the best option by far.

You should three-bet this flop.

[TMFS9]

You didn't cap preflop for deception purposes, then didn't raise the flop to create more deception, now there's no reason to slow down once you decieved him into thinking his probable (tt-kk) is best. If he has 99 here so be it. D is the best option given, if you could get away with a cap and then river checkraise it would be the goods.

[ggbman]

Obviously D, only hand your worried about is 99.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
F.) Call and Check/Raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering where this option was as well. Not that it's necessarily best, opponent has to be a little bit worried about your calling the turn 3-bet.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
F.) Call and Check/Raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against what hands would you make more doing this than by capping and leading?

[tolbiny]

agreed.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
F.) Call and Check/Raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against what hands would you make more doing this than by capping and leading?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. I came back to edit my post and say that maybe F., though at first appealing, is just plain ole FPS. I think you make more money with the river checkraise against a medium pocket pair that might try value-betting against AK on the river, but lay down to a turn cap knowing they're doomed. But I think that that is rare enough (% chance that they have a medium pocket pair * chance they'd value bet the river if checked to, but fold to a turn cap) that it's better to straight-out cap the turn and lead the river.

[BradL]

I have not read others responses so I apologize if this has already been said or if I contradict everything everyone else has said (I somehow doubt the latter). You didnt cap preflop, you cap now and lead the river. Opponent likely holds any overpair to the flop and still thinks its good. This is where the positive EV of not capping AA preflop comes from, if you dont take advantage of it then you would have been better off capping preflop in the first place.

-Brad

[flawless_victory]

cap it(DUH&gt;) and checkraise the river...

[mmcd]

Postflop: Checkraise the flop/Call his 3-bet/Lead 3-bet the turn. If capped call down or (maybe) checkraise the river if he's extra aggro.

[arkady]

if hte river is a 9 or an 8 i would go for e) too, but otherwise d. just that being loopy is so much ffffun.

[PassiveCaller]

I like f) call, and check raise the river.

[sam h]

As you say, a medium pair three-betting with the intent to fold to a cap but value-bet the river is a pretty unlikely scenario.

Far more likely is AKd or AQd 3-betting the turn on a semi-bluff with the intent of checking behind the river or JJ or TT three-betting the turn and then pussing out and checking the river behind.

[DrGutshot]

[ QUOTE ]
Postflop: Checkraise the flop/Call his 3-bet/Lead 3-bet the turn. If capped call down or (maybe) checkraise the river if he's extra aggro.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this line, thanks.

-DrG

[DrGutshot]

I capped, led turn, he foolishly raised with the nuts and I called.

(yes, quads)

thanks for the input all.

-DrG

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't argue preflop, I think not capping when it's heads up against a thinking opponent is +++EEEVVV

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, now that results are posted, can you talk about pre-flop? I think this is an interesting pre-flop play and I'm considering adding it to my arsenal.

[DrGutshot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't argue preflop, I think not capping when it's heads up against a thinking opponent is +++EEEVVV

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, now that results are posted, can you talk about pre-flop? I think this is an interesting pre-flop play and I'm considering adding it to my arsenal.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure

preflop this seemed pretty clear to me. As long as it is heads up and the person I am against isn't a complete moron, then I don't like to cap it.

If they're as dumb as can be, then most definitely I will cap it. However, on flops just like these it is easy to get a TAG to overplay a weaker overpair and colect bets on later streets.

-DrG

P.S. I would be far less likely to play KK this way, because if they're 3betting a strong ace I usually want them to fold soon.

[Jeff W]

By the same token, are you capping hands like 77 and KJs to misrepresent your strength?

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. I would be far less likely to play KK this way, because if they're 3betting a strong ace I usually want them to fold soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it get. How likely is a scenario in which they would be correct to call to the river with three outs heads up?

[DrGutshot]

Nope, if I wanted to cap these hands, then I would cap AA as well, because my opponent would not be able to put me on it after seeing me cap with those hands.

In general I don't like to drastically overplay my hands out of position for deception. This AA example is one of the few times I get sneaky.

-DrG

[DrGutshot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
P.S. I would be far less likely to play KK this way, because if they're 3betting a strong ace I usually want them to fold soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it get. How likely is a scenario in which they would be correct to call to the river with three outs heads up?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right Sam, I wasn't thinking clearly. I suppose I may not cap with KK either in this spot.

Thanks for pointing that out.

-DrG

[Joe826]

Not capping preflop is silly. You're guarenteed that extra SB (you're 100% ahead) when you cap, where as when you smooth call you have to make it up post-flop where a variety of situations could evolve.

If all goes as planned, you manage to check/raise the turn and get an extra SB overall. The point is, you're making this play when your equity could very well be significantly less and there's a very good chance things DON'T go as planned (see: hand posted). Cap pre-flop and take the easy money.

[DrGutshot]

[ QUOTE ]
Not capping preflop is silly. You're guarenteed that extra SB (you're 100% ahead) when you cap, where as when you smooth call you have to make it up post-flop where a variety of situations could evolve.

If all goes as planned, you manage to check/raise the turn and get an extra SB overall. The point is, you're making this play when your equity could very well be significantly less and there's a very good chance things DON'T go as planned (see: hand posted). Cap pre-flop and take the easy money.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO the small bet I miss preflop disguises my hand suficiently to make up for it on later streets. The results of this hand do not show that capping preflop is what is best. If anything, I may have lost more bets if I had capped.

If there were 2 other people in the hand, or my opponent was a doofus, I'm definitely capping as disguising my hand is not as important.

-DrG

[1800GAMBLER]

I like capping thhen c/r'ing the river.

[Danenania]

I don't get not capping PF. No one gives any credit to a cap in 6-max anyway. Take the extra money and make the pot bigger so AQ calls you down.