Raise preflop, bet the flop, now what?

[Spicymoose]

This situation comes up so often for me, and I am so confused as to what to do. Please help. I'll give a few examples.

1. Hero is BB with AQs. 3 limpers, SB folds, Hero raises. Flop comes 279r. Hero bets, 3 callers. Turn is a 5. Now what?

2. Same as before, but now we have 2 callers.

3. 3 callers on a flop of 2c8c9d, we have none of the suits.

4. same as before, but now 2 callers.

5. 3 callers on a flop of 2c8c9d, we have AdQd.

6. same as before, but 2 callers.

Thanks for the help. For each of the situations, please tell me if its definetly a bet, definetly a check, or if it is really close and could swing either way depending on other circumstances.

Spicymoose

[CallMeIshmael]

I think the turn card is pretty big piece of information here. What are they?

[Spicymoose]

Sorry, I edited it. The turn is a blank (5 in this case).

[QTip]

Ahhh yes....overcards, overcards. They're never comfortable.

You've not given enough information to answer questions here...and seeing that oversight is important...

I would just suggest going back and rereading the Overcards section in SSHE, then, go back and reread the Overcards section in SSHE, after that, go back and reread the Overcards section in SSHE. Once you've finished that, go back and ....

You're going to run into these situation so frequently, it will have a very large impact on your win rate.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Hero is BB with AQs. 3 limpers, SB folds, Hero raises. Flop comes 279r. Hero bets, 3 callers. Turn is a 5. Now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Note: I'm assuming complete fishiness here. A solid or two, and I change things.

I think there is still a pretty good chance you have the best hand. I don't think you can lead the turn here, because you are called down a lot.

[ QUOTE ]

2. Same as before, but now we have 2 callers.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm leaning towards betting, because your fold equity might be high enough given you probably have 6 outs if call, and you are behind.

[ QUOTE ]

3. 3 callers on a flop of 2c8c9d, we have none of the suits.

4. same as before, but now 2 callers.


[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, this flop isnt that different from the previous one, in terms of being called on the flop. A flop of 2c8c9 and 279r appear to be worlds apart in terms of drawness, but a fish peels almost as often on the first as the second, IMO.

What does change is the chances that your turn bet is called. I'm leaning towards checking in both, but if someone were to argue bet the second, I wouldn't need a whole lot of convincing.

[ QUOTE ]

5. 3 callers on a flop of 2c8c9d, we have AdQd.

6. same as before, but 2 callers.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm asssuming that since you are including our suits, the 5 is the 5d. You have as many as 15 outs to improve. Thats 2.1-1. You don't need a whole lot of fold equity to bet here. I say bet both.

[nolanfan34]

My generic line in all of those, is to bet the flop, and check the turn when I'm out of position like that.

If I was on the button instead, I usually fire another barrel on the turn, even against 2 callers.

I'll usually call a single turn bet on a ragged board like that, as your overcard outs could certainly be good. Add the fact that it will get checked through on the turn occassionally, that I think the check is an OK play against multiple callers.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
This situation comes up so often for me, and I am so confused as to what to do. Please help. I'll give a few examples.

1. Hero is BB with AQs. 3 limpers, SB folds, Hero raises. Flop comes 279r. Hero bets, 3 callers. Turn is a 5. Now what?

2. Same as before, but now we have 2 callers.

3. 3 callers on a flop of 2c8c9d, we have none of the suits.

4. same as before, but now 2 callers.

5. 3 callers on a flop of 2c8c9d, we have AdQd.

6. same as before, but 2 callers.

Thanks for the help. For each of the situations, please tell me if its definetly a bet, definetly a check, or if it is really close and could swing either way depending on other circumstances.

Spicymoose

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty much never firing again out of position into the whole field, whether or not I call dpeends on how close I am to closing the action, how many callers there are to the bet, and whether I've had 2 beers or 5.

I might fire again HU, bu that's a whole different ballgame.

[QTip]

Autobetting overcards on the flop seems to be a pretty common mistake. I don't think people are evaluating the strength of their overcards nearly enough.

I remember one of the first pieces of advice from a 2+2 poster that really helped me "Just because you raised PF, does not obligate you to bet the flop."

[Spicymoose]

The only times I seem to not be betting the flop after raising preflop are when I am out of position and there are 4 other opponents around (and I have not hit anything). I also might not bet if I have 99 and 2 overcards hit, or it is an equally scary board.

Are there other examples you can think of? Most of the time I follow the "I bet preflop, so I am betting the flop" line.

[CallMeIshmael]

I think this is a very good point QTip.

I'm assuming, however, that in the case of 297, you think its OK to lead, right?

The chances of your hand being good, combined with the chances that if behind you are likely to be good if you hit make it a bet. At least, IMO.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is BB with AQs. 3 limpers, SB folds, Hero raises. Flop comes 279r. Hero bets, 3 callers. Turn is a 5. Now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll use this one hand as an example.

He says AQs. OK. Flop: 279r

That's not enough information. Did I get one of my suits on the flop? If so, that's improvment and the bd strenthens my overcards.

3 limpers. This isn't enough information. What type of player are they? Where'd limp from?

For example, if it's a TAP on the button that limped, there's a decent chance that the rags hit him, etc.

You have to consider a lot of different factors to play overcards well. The fact that these factors were missing in the OP, led me to believe that the poster is missing knowledge to play overcards well. (Not that I'm an expert at it...goes without saying - but just so we all know I know it /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

[bernie]

In 1, 3 and maybe 5, I wouldn't have bet the flop. Unless these players play tight postflop and may fold. Which isn't likely.

There's a good starting point.

b

[Ice]

Spicey

Playing overcards is not easy. I think you need to pick up SSH and read the overcards section to get a feel for how to handle these situations.In general the more players the less likely you are to bet. However,with three players and a board with some draws you should be more inclined to bet.In otherwords the WIDER THE RANGE OF HOLDINGS these 2 or 3 players could have the more inclined you s/b to bet.

For example if the board comes Q 7 3 rainbow and you bet into 2 players and they both call i would check the turn because there is not many hands these guys could be holding since there are no draws.However,if the board was T 9 3 with 2 hearts i would be more inclined to bet. None of this is locked in stone.But you have to try and think about the proper concets that apply.SSh has a checklist that is very helpful. Read it then try to answer your own questions as it will prove to be very helpful.Ice

[LinusKS]

You're not the only one. A lot of people feel like that (including me). Playing overcards is complicated, and tricky.

Here's my take.

1. Check. Chances are you're behind. Any pair will call you down, and if somebody actually likes his hand, this is where he puts in his raise.

Unfortunately, if it's bet back to you - which it probably will be - you'll have a tough choice to make.

There'll be at least 7.5 bets in the pot (minus the rake), and, if your overs are good, you'll be getting - barely - odds to see one more bet.

Unfortunately, you can't be sure of that. There's always a small chance somebody's already made two pair or a set.

To make things even a little worse, your check basically invited someone to try to steal this pot, and very often, that's exactly what someone will try to do.

Absent any reads, I guess I figure this to be a call, although a very close one.

If it gets checked around, I don't necessarily take that to mean you're ahead - against three opponents, I'm willing to take it as a free card.

If you miss the river, you have to check. If it's bet, you have to compare the pot odds against the (small) chance your A high is actually good. There'll be approximately ten bets in the pot by then, depending on the action on the turn, so if you're against a singly laggy opponent, you might actually have to throw one more bet in, painful though that is.

Against two or more, or against a generally passive player, it's an obvious fold.

If you hit the river, I'd check-call a passive player, and check-raise a lag. Absent any reads, I check.

Against two players, my gut is a value raise might be in order. I figure two players are less likely to fold than one, and if one of them does have a better hand, he's less likely to raise in a three-way pot than he would heads up.

[habsfanca11]

Spicy, there was a really good post back a few weeks that is worth looking for. I wish I could remember some of the details to direct you better but I don't. Perhaps QTip remembers it as he was involved in the thread. The synopsis of that thread was - there is no SOP, play it differently every time based on the information present. What I got out of it was play the players and the playing conditions more .... Some example considerations to factor in: what is my table image? Who is in the hand with me? What type of players are they? etc. etc. Then you begin factoring aspects like: they're both calling stations and will call down with any piece of the board + my table image needs some polishing + pots small + I'm out of position = this time I check; or for example: my table image is excellent, I've taken down the last two pots with TPTK, one of these guys for sure has shown he can fold, I can likely represent an over-pair here, unless I meet resistance I'm going to fire at the flop and the turn, etc. etc. Sorry this is so general and non-specific. But I've been finding my "over-card only" play improved by using this general advice and really flipping a switch in my head to play the players and the game conditions more than the board. FWIW. Cheers.