The river bet game [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 01:42 PM

yesterday was a good session, minus a bunch of hands where my river play was suspect. so I'm postng a few hands and interested in what river action I should take. i'll make it a game, too, with either an "A,B, or C" answer, and points to each answer (yadda yadda) also if my play is poor on preceeding streets, say so.

This post contains 6 hands, also, so if you dont want to play "the river game," well.. ignore this =)

Winner gets... I dont know, someone make up an award or somehting (?)

Hand number 1

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($19.35)
SB ($291.70)
BB ($61.75)
UTG ($99.85)
MP1 ($99)
Hero ($82.85)
CO ($181.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $1, CO calls $1, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($5) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $4, Hero raises to $12, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $8.

River: ($29) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero ?

On river pot is 29, I have 70 ish he has me covered.
A. Check
B. Bet 10 to 15 (shade less then halfpot)
C. GO FOR THE GUSTO, BIG BET! (Full pot or more)

Hand number 2 (another KQ)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($40)
MP2 ($167.55)
CO ($59.35)
Button ($41.55)
Hero ($176.70)
BB ($24.50)
UTG ($40)
UTG+1 ($131.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, MP1 (poster) checks, 1 fold, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($7) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players)
Hero bets $5, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $5, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: ($17) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $12, MP1 calls $12.

River: ($41) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero ?

On river pot is 41, villain has 22 I have more
A. Check with the intention of folding to a bet
B. Check with the intention of calling a bet
C. Put the rest of his stack in (half pot)

Hand 3 (hit my card for free)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($41.75)
UTG+1 ($35.05)
MP1 ($45.40)
MP2 ($51.75)
Hero ($91.50)
Button ($40.40)
SB ($123.80)
BB ($100.70)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $1, 3 folds, Hero calls $1, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($4) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($4) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $5, UTG folds, Hero raises to $13, SB folds, BB calls $8.

River: ($30) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero ?

On river pot is 30, I have 78ish, he has slightly more
A. Check behind
B. Bet halfpot (or so, so 14 to 18 range), fold to checkraise
C. Same as B but call checkraise
D. Bet alot (25+) naturally all money goes in if BB gets frisky

Hand 4 (I'm very embarrassed by this one; this hand was bad, and here is typical "do as I say, not as I do")

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($22)
MP1 ($167.55)
MP2 ($58.35)
CO ($40.55)
Hero ($197.70)
SB ($23.50)
BB ($39)
UTG ($130.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1, 2 folds, Hero calls $1, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($4.50) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $4, BB folds, UTG raises to $8, MP1 folds, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($20.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $12, UTG calls $12.

River: ($44.50) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero ?

On river pot is 44, we both are still very deep (he has 110? I have more) *note: This player was fairly straightforward, his chance of a turn c/r was ~1%. I also kept wanting to play pots with him as he was straightforward in the level 1 sense; he made alot of money (later and prior to this hand) with trips no kicker, making a "tough" call vs a flush draw.
A. Check
B. Bet 20 to 26
C. Overbet! 40+

Hand 5

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($47.55)
SB ($62.85)
BB ($48.65)
UTG ($118.50)
Hero ($92.95)
CO ($164.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 3 folds, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($8.50) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $5, BB calls $5.

River: ($18.50) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero ?

On the river the pot is 18, BB has 40ish left I have him covered.
A. Check (if anyone considers that, you fail no matter how good your other answers are)
B. 10 to 12 range (halfpot ish)
C. full pot (range of 17 to 20)
D. Overbet, lets put him in! (40) ~ a MoH esque river move.

Hand 6 (last one)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($136.80)
Hero ($126.85)
UTG ($33.15)
MP1 ($82.35)
MP2 ($102.30)
CO ($5.75)
Button ($20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, MP2 calls $1, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($4) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: ($4) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, UTG folds, MP2 calls $3, SB folds.

River: ($10) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero ?

River pot is 10, MP has 95+ I have a hedge more
A. Check with the intention of folding
B. Check with the intention of calling
C. Fire a bet 6 to 10 with the intention of calling a raise
D. Fire a bet 6 to 10 with the intention of folding to a raise (blocking bet)
E. Big bet! 11+

I'll generate a scale of points assigned to everything. I actually think the river play of a few hands is fairly interesting, others are more standard. I'll post what I did / points to everything in a day (or at the end of the day)

steaknshake925

03-24-2005, 02:40 PM

hand 1:
At first i thought check behind since there's a very good chance he has a missed draw, but now i think bet halfpot because KJ and K10 will probly pay off.

hand 2:
i like betting his stack(halfpot) to get value from smaller kings. if you check and he moves in i think you have to call, so its better to make the value bet. also he has a short stack which means he's probly weak which increases ur chances of getting called by Kx.

hand 3
how about a stab on the flop? its pretty raggedy and you have outs.
on the river i check. theres not many hands that you beat that will call. the chances of him having a 7 and paying off is pretty small, and a 5 probly bets the river. since hes BB, he might have a higher straight like 36 or 68 which he checked but will call a bet with.

hand 4
if hes really straightforward you can bet small say 1/4 pot so that a ten will call. otherwise check behind the river. Also, in the future try to pair your kicker on the river.

hand 5
bet halfpot or smaller. he cant have a very big hand and will probly fold to a big bet. next best is to try to MoH him if hes really weak.

hand 6
i like a small blockin bet because a small ace or a seven might call. of course, fold if you get raised.

KowCiller

03-24-2005, 02:49 PM

Ok I'll take a stab at the bet the river game /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Ok, Hand 1:

I'd go for option B, bet a bit less than 1/2 the pot.

Hand 2:

B, but I think it's close and player dependent. A lot of people will bet their boat on the river there, fearing a check behind. I'm not sure what he's calling with there on the turn unless it's 77, 44, 22...An overpair would have surely bet the flop. Presumably UTG wouldn't have a 5. Yet his check on the river is throwing me off a bit. Against a loosie who could have a 5 UTG, I'll call the river checkraise.

Hand 4:
Edited:
Option B.
He check-minraises you on the flop on T 2 2 board. Very weird. I think it could be a donk trying to play a flush draw like this (wouldn't be bad if the checkraise was for more than min amount, imo). I would expect to see a mid-pocket pair or flush draw out of this guy a decent portion of the time.

Hand 5:
Option B, bet 1/2 the pot.
I play this a bit differently though. I'll definitely bet this flop heads up in position. Check behind on the turn and then value bet 1/2 to 2/3 the pot on the river.

Hand 6:
Option D, throw a blocking bet out there and fold to a raise. I think you have the best hand a good portion of the time here.

So how did I do? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

KoW

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So how did I do?

KoW

[/ QUOTE ]

better then me ;/

also, i think you skipped hand 2 and made hand 3 hand 2...

madscout

03-24-2005, 04:07 PM

1)A I want a cheap showdown and would hate getting c/r here

2)B Induce a river bluff by missed flush draw?

3)B I think you are ahead here most the time, but a c/r would probably indicate a boat

4)A Check behind. Your stop and go on the turn indicates a lot of strength (I think), and your opponent still calls. If he missed a flush draw your not getting any more out of him, and if he has weak trips he could still have you beat.

5)B I'm value betting the nuts here.

6)D I'd toss in a blocking bet and fold to a raise.

KowCiller

03-24-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
also, i think you skipped hand 2 and made hand 3 hand 2...

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops. You're right. On hand #2 I would check/cal to snap off a bluff from a missed flush draw.

KoW

fathertime

03-24-2005, 04:17 PM

1. If you think his turn bet means he paired his king then b. Otherwise I guess I'd check behind.
2. I'd put him all in.
3. hand 3 is tough because of his call of your turn bet. And when the river pairs the board--ugh. I guess I'm checking behind.
4. Not sure what to make of the flop minraise (what did you think of it?). I guess I value bet for 20 to 26.
5. c or d. Maybe lean to d, let him think you are trying to push him around.
6. bet 8-10. If reraised, call or fold depending upon opponent.

Let me know how I do--played bad yesterday--ugh!

jimdmcevoy

03-24-2005, 04:30 PM

1. A
2. C
3. B
4. B
5. B
6. B - and what are you doin in the pot with 74o? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

MathProf

03-24-2005, 04:36 PM

OK I'll take a swing:

Hand 1: B - value bet as I think he has KJ, K10, busted flush or busted straight. If he comes over the top then reevaluate.

Hand 2: B - again I think weak K or busted flush draw, if so he'll probably fold to an all in push. I want to give him a chance to bluff away his stack.

Hand 3: C - I think you are tied at worst. I don't think villian has a boat. I put in a value bet and call if he comes over the top.

Hand 4: B - Value bet again. Fold if he comes over the top.

Hand 5: B - best chance of squeezing out value

Hand 6: D - throw out the block, fold to aggression

How'd I score?

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 04:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
6. B - and what are you doin in the pot with 74o?

[/ QUOTE ]

hey! was bb

jimdmcevoy

03-24-2005, 04:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6. B - and what are you doin in the pot with 74o?

[/ QUOTE ]

hey! was bb

[/ QUOTE ]

just messin with ya, bad joke i couldn't help it

kurto

03-24-2005, 05:06 PM

1) I don't like this one. Full house, straight, and set possibilities. Though if top pair is good, I would trust your kicker is best. The only think encouraging is that he didn't bet on the river. Though perhaps, due to your turn aggression, he's hoping for a checkraise? If there was checkraise, would you call? I lean towards 'no'... and check it through.

2) "C. Put the rest of his stack in (half pot)" The opponent didn't bet on the flop. Nor did he checkraise with a potential flush draw. The player is in middle position so he is less likely to have 2 pair with anything on that flop. I would therefore, be inclined to put him on a draw.

3) I'm wavering between "C. Same as B but call checkraise" and D. "Bet a lot and be ready to go all in." This may be a big weakness of mine. I (perhaps incorrectly) think my straight is good against a random blind hand.

4) ahem... since cutoff is straightforward, I have trouble putting him on a 2 UTG. In which case, the only hands you fear are Pocket 10s or Qs. Though I'm having trouble imagining what he would CR you with here. If he had pocket 10s on the flop, I would think he'd wait til the turn to make such a move. He's NOT likely to put you on a two. I'm inclined to think you're ahead. So bet... I pick C.

5) "B. 10 to 12 range (halfpot ish)" Only because I can't see him calling much more.

6) Another toughie. I think if you check, you invite a steal. And since we don't know how much opponent would bet, better to lead out what you would be willing to call... I vote D (blocking bet/fold to reraise)

JMBills

03-24-2005, 05:19 PM

My stab at this:

1. B, watch out for a big check-raise. This guy hit a good king, is laying a trap with a straight (why did he call the turn raise?), or he took a stab at the pot and was too dumb to let his hand go.
2. C? Your stack size vs his stack size would mandate this, right?
3. A He turn bet-called. Would worse hands call a good river bet with this board? This would be a tougher decision than some of the other hands and would be pretty dependant on the tendencies of this particular opponent.
4. B Again the tendencies of your opponent make this interesting. He's straightforward according to your read. At first I was wondering if he was testing your pot sized bet on the flop with a raise, or perhaps he was on a flush draw.
5. B This opponent's only put in 9 dollars into the pot so far, unless he has a strong hand like trips or a straight or an unlikely lesser flush he's probably not going to call a large bet. He's not shown much aggression yet either, maybe he'll call a decent value bet down.
6. D

This exercise is interesting, I look forward to seeing the results

aaronbeen

03-24-2005, 05:20 PM

1.b
any draw folds, almost any made hand beats you
2.a
More info on the player would be nice - I'm probably going to get this wrong but I encounter more players that slow play two pair or a set at these limits than players that take a stab when they miss a draw. KJ or K10 aren't out of the question either though, but if he's been passive so far he might check behind. So maybe call a small bet?
3.a
again, seems like you are only called by stronger hands
4.b
normally check behind, but a straightforward player in call down mode? time to value bet
5.b
if he has a small piece of the flop and puts you on overcards (which makes sense with his earlier play) he might call the small bet. The big bet says overpair or flush. The answer changes of course if you have the aggressive/steal image.
6.d
Seems the best possible answer. Options C and E seem poor because you lose a lot of money to the flush. Option B seems like you win less/lose more than option D because his bet is likely to be larger than 6-10. Option A seems weak, even for me (look at my previous answers!). The blocking bet seems fine: you don't lose too much, you get paid off occasionally, and he's got to be crazy or really have you read if he raises without the flush.

Someone really good post "correct" answers please. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

kurto

03-24-2005, 05:30 PM

There must be some way to score it monetarily... ie... everyone starts with $100. The hands are played in progression. And your stack changes depending on how each hand played out. The person at the end with the most chips wins.

The only thing we can't know is the effect of bets when you didnt bet... ie... would a pot sized bet have cause opponent to fold where a 1/2 bet might have led to a call. I think, Bobby, you'll have to make some assumptions on how the hand would have played out based on his hand and your read on him.

I look forward to hearing how it all came out.

JaBlue

03-24-2005, 05:40 PM

Great post. Give the winner 5$.

1)A
2)B
3)C
4)B
5)B
6)C

swolfe

03-24-2005, 05:41 PM

Hand number 1
A. Check - it may be a leak in my game, but i have trouble value betting one pair hands on the river when i can check and see if the pot is mine.

Hand number 2 (another KQ)
B. Check with the intention of calling a bet - i like to induce bets

Hand 3 (hit my card for free)
A. Check behind - i don't know. what hand will call a bet here that we beat?

Hand 4
A. Check - again, what hand would call a bet that we're ahead of?

Hand 5
C. full pot (range of 17 to 20) - hope he pushes his stack in

Hand 6 (last one)
C. Fire a bet 6 to 10 with the intention of calling a raise - i think you're good here often enough to call a reasonable raise

aaronbeen

03-24-2005, 05:53 PM

oops I missed the time to edit. Anyway for #1 I explained why checking was my play but said bet. Check is my final answer.

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 06:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Great post. Give the winner 5$.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, sounds fair. Winner (i'll tabulate / post my thoughts at 8pm) will get 5$ on pstars

kurto

03-24-2005, 06:14 PM

I haven't added it up, but I think most liked checking on A. Beyond that the answers were somewhat diverse. Which is interesting, showing the diversity of thought processes and playing styles on this board.

Whoever lost the most (probably me lol) should get a booby prize.

dtbog

03-24-2005, 06:19 PM

Hmm...

Hand 1:

B - I like a half-pot bet here.. I don't think he flopped a straight or a set. I think he has KJ more often than anything with an eight in it.

Hand 2:

C.

Gah.. I'd picked C and put him on A /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif before I saw that he bought in for $40 and posted out of turn. He could have anything.

Then again, I'd say check/call... but that's weaktight and I'd rather make the push. Go ahead. C

Hand 3:

B

Playing against the BB makes this one pretty tricky. He could have 36, 54, 57, 52, any of that. I say make a bet, but fold to a c/r (unless it's a min-raise in which case I think you have to call with odds)..

Hand 4:

B

Why does he c/r this flop? A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif, A /images/graemlins/club.gif T, 99? I doubt he has TT or QQ, unless he's into limp-raising QQ... could he have A2? I'd hope he wouldn't limp UTG and then c/r that flop with it... I'll take B, half-pot bet. See if he'll call with AT/AQ/(QT??)

Hand 5:

D

You know, I'm in an MoH mood, and I think he might have caught a flush. Wooooooooo.

Hand 5:

D. Block that shit... but if he raises, I don't think you can call.

-dB

kurto

03-24-2005, 06:26 PM

"You know, I'm in an MoH mood, and I think he might have caught a flush. Wooooooooo." I'm surprised to hear this. It seems more likely that he was hoping for a spade flush then a diamond flush. If you're right, he may get a call. The other 100 times (just a guess) he doesn't have the diamond flush, you've driven out a call. (unless he has a straight, which he might call)

dtbog

03-24-2005, 06:29 PM

Hey all -

After I posted my responses I read those of others... and I'm curious which hands call the 1/2 pot bet on Hand 5 (option B) but don't call a big overbet.

1/2 pot sort of looks like value-betting the nuts.. which is exactly what it would be. I might be underestimating villain here, but I think if he's calling this much with his lower flush, he'll call more. If he hit a straight -- he doesn't call an overbet, but I doubt he calls 1/2 pot. There's also the possibility that he simply doesn't believe you, and does call with the straight/two pair/whatever.

Remember, the overbet has to be called about 1/4 as often as the half-pot bet to make it more +EV. I pull a Wayfare here.

Comments? Disagreements?

-dB

dtbog

03-24-2005, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It seems more likely that he was hoping for a spade flush then a diamond flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to question why.

He didn't put any money in on the flop... and both flush draws were out on the turn. They seem totally equivalent to me -- I can't see why you would think he had one over the other.

EDIT: Hmm, you're right that it's more likely that he has spades, because the ace and king of diamonds are gone (duh.)

Then again, if he has a spade flush draw, he's not calling on the river anyway, right? (regardless of bet size)

See my post below about my thoughts on the MoH. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-dB

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 10:26 PM

hand 1.
River: ($29) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $29

Results in white below: 
UTG has Kc 4c (two pair, kings and eights).
Hero has Qs Kd (two pair, kings and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $29. 

I thought villains most likely hand was a lone T or 6 followed by a flush draw
followed by a weaker king (or, possibly, 2 pair w/ a
king)

Given it was UTG, I didn't think a mid pair which wasn't two pair (any connector) was likely, especially due to lack of aggression. Betting against a busted draw has no value, but since he's checked to me, I should've thrown a bet. I think B, (bet half pot or so) is best, as there is no way he folds any king there.

I checked, (A) and he flipped over K4 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

I dont like a big river bet, as well, because if villain is tricky, and did check something like JT this far, or did in fact have a mid pair which made trips on the river, (and wanted to check/call ME if I had the draw) I stand to lose the bet but it probably can't be called. So I think:
A (check) = 0 pts
B (half pot) = 2 pts
C (big bet) = -2 pts

hand 2.
River: ($41) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: $41

Results in white below: 
MP1 has Tc Kc (two pair, kings and fours).
Hero has Qh Ks (two pair, kings and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins $41. 

in all fairness i was 4 tabling, so i didn't see how little villain had left. my default play / standard is to check call, as I'm fairly positive my hand is good, *unless they played K9 that slowly on THAT flop with THAT many people (or a set)

he was also a poster, so really any hand was possible.

I checked with the intention of calling a bet, (B) he checked behind and showed KT /images/graemlins/club.gif

The thing is, such a short stack is unlikely to make a move on pot, (with busted flush draw, busted gutdraw, or combination, or pair + flush) and they likely WILL have a king, especially a weaker king since he posted. Any villain will pay off the half pot (22 in stack, 41 in pot) I believe with any top pair, so that is the right play in this situation. Normally I think check/calling is best though.

Check/folding is bad, because a. the turn paired 4, making a set very unlikely (plus I bet almost pot, so the chance I'm getting called by low pair is small) b. all draws missed c. any king which value bet I most likely have outkicked (AK would raise) so
A (check/fold) = -3pts
B (check/call) = 1 pt
C (put him in, half pot) = 3 pts

hand 3.

River: ($30) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $18, BB calls $18.

Final Pot: $66

Results in white below: 
BB has 5d 6h (three of a kind, fives).
Hero has 3d Ad (straight, five high).
Outcome: Hero wins $66. 

I really didn't like the river. (note, also, I think my turn raise was too small) I bet half pot (B) but I was probably going to fold to a checkraise. even though i would've basically throw up in disgust.

I think checking is too weak, as there are numerous hands the BB will call with that we have beaten. In this hand BB had 56o for pair + OESD on turn, and trips on the river. I really dont know what the correct river play is, but he definately would've called more, and I think other hands would call more, too. So I'm just going to say:

A (check) = 0 pt
B (bet half/fold to raise) = 2pts
C (bet half/call raise) = 1 pt
D (bet bigger) = 2 pt

Not sure about this hand. all i know is I like betting, but I can understand checking.

hand 4

River: ($44.50) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $44.50

Results in white below: 
UTG has Th Ac (two pair, tens and twos).
Hero has 5s 2s (three of a kind, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins $44.50. 

I actually, at the time, thought villain was BB when he min checkraised me on the flop, so I immediately thought bigger trips. wasn't till the turn check (I wondered why a 2 would do that) I noticed he wasn't the BB. So he limped utg and min checkraised the flop, checked the turn... I sorta assumed draw, so I thought my river bet would have no value. I didn't consider he could have a TPTK hand or overpair, and without thinking much, i checked behind. He had ATo. His play actually makes sense, and mine either looks like a
weaker ten, weird trips (which is what it was) or over aggro semibluff. Villain most likely has a draw (which wont call any bet) or a TPTK/middling hand like that. (KT, QT - would expect more action fro mthat, JT, etc) i think ahalf pot bet or so gets paid off, and really I have no reason to suspect villain is sandbagging a hand like A2, TT, or QQ (would raise preflop/bet flop/etc) Also a half pot is good for shania bluffing purposes, because although my opponents (most of them) aren't observant, a few are, and will see I check this fairly strong hand. so my river bets become transparent. I dont htink overbetting is bad, either, as it could be read as a busted draw and get a big callfrom a very marginal top pair hand. Once again, the chance I trap myself is small. This opponent, straightforward in all, was probably prepared to check/call any, so I probably should've either made a nice half pot, oroverbet and seen what happened.
I think-
A (check) = -2pts
B (half pot) = 3pts
C (big bet) = 2 pts

can't distinguish which is better. Maybe half pot only because it sets up future bluffs, whereas I will probably not ever bluff a big bet there on a busted draw.

hand 5, backdooring the nuts

River: ($18.50) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $11, BB calls $11.

Final Pot: $40.50

Results in white below: 
BB has 9c 4s (two pair, nines and fours).
Hero has Kd Ad (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins $40.50. 

I played this funky as I would normally follow up my bet, but this opponent was new (and bought in a weird amount) which leads me to believe he'd check/call a pair down or something.
In any case his call on the turn seems either straight draw, flush draw, or less likely unless they're passive, a pair. (any, really) The river is great for me, as it makes a few straight draws, and alot of connector type hands one might defend their blind now has 2 pair.
I thought he would call with any pair, hoping I was bluffing my busted overcards. (with my bet) The complete lack of strength up to this point quelled my hope he had a big hand (set, 2 pair, smaller flush, straight) so I just hoped to make the most I could from what was likely a one pair hand. interestingly, he turned over 94o, for turned and then rivered 2 pair. I guess this guy was just the typical fish.

So in retrospect a big bet would've been best, but I believe my play here actually was best overall. Normally when I backdoor an unlikely hand I make a big bet, but since this whole hand had little strength displayed, there was no need to blow him off a weak holding and collect relatively nothing. So:

A (check the nuts behind) = You fail
B (halfpot) = 3pts
C (full pot) might be paid off by a pair, but unlikely
= 1 pt
D (big bet!) = 0 pts
This bet is very unlikely to be called given the action, so even though you make more when they do, the % they call is small.

last hand, #6 (I do lose hands on occaison)

River: ($10) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $7, MP2 calls $7.

Final Pot: $24

Results in white below: 
Hero has 7h 4d (two pair, sevens and fours).
MP2 has 3d 3s (three of a kind, threes).
Outcome: MP2 wins $24. 

I'm not sure if I was going to call a raise or not (probably not)The flop was checked around, and my turn bet was simply called. I really didn't think anyone had a big hand, I thought my turned 2 pair was golden, (what a bb special) but someone could've picked up a flush draw on the turn which got there on the river. or just had a weak ace and decided to check along. I dont think I get raised by a weaker
hand, so bet / fold makes sense to me. In the actual hand villain turned over 33 for a flopped set, (amazing how poorly he played it) and I was very thankful I didn't lose more. (if he raised the turn or did something to put SOME money into the pot!)

I thin check/folding is very weak and bad, because if you check it's very possible they bet with a weaker hand for value (an ace, for example) so check/calling better. But the range they check behind with (anything that will pay off) is too big to make check/calling viable.

I think bet/folding is superior to bet/calling, because they probably cant have a smaller hand to raise you.

A bigger bet may have been in order, though, because it's not likely they fold a marginal hand there. I was really surprised I didn't win the hand. so
A (check/fold) = -2 pts
B (check/call) = -1pt
C (bet/call) = 0 pt
D (bet/fold) = 2pt
E (bigger bet) = 2pts

All in all:

15pts (perfect) = River master
8-14 pts (very good) = River pro
3-7 pts (good) = River semi pro
0-2 pts (ok) = Needs some work
Anything negative = Poor river player

I scored 6 points total, so I did semi-well. But river play, especially 100xbb when you have money left, is so important because you either win 100% or win 0%, no outdraws on the river. If I played the river perfectlythis session I could've won much more.

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 10:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hand 1:
At first i thought check behind since there's a very good chance he has a missed draw, but now i think bet halfpot because KJ and K10 will probly pay off.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 pts, I agree, a halfpot was in order

[ QUOTE ]

hand 2:
i like betting his stack(halfpot) to get value from smaller kings. if you check and he moves in i think you have to call, so its better to make the value bet. also he has a short stack which means he's probly weak which increases ur chances of getting called by Kx.

[/ QUOTE ]

pefect analysis, 5 pts total

[ QUOTE ]

hand 3
how about a stab on the flop? its pretty raggedy and you have outs.
on the river i check. theres not many hands that you beat that will call. the chances of him having a 7 and paying off is pretty small, and a 5 probly bets the river. since hes BB, he might have a higher straight like 36 or 68 which he checked but will call a bet with.

[/ QUOTE ]

flop bet might be ok, but 3 opponents I'd rather just check back. Also not sure how great a few of my outs are.

5 pts total

[ QUOTE ]

hand 4
if hes really straightforward you can bet small say 1/4 pot so that a ten will call. otherwise check behind the river. Also, in the future try to pair your kicker on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think he has a 2 based on turn and river passivity? This is technically 3pts, as he'll call, but it wasn't an option, so I'm making it 2 :P 7 pts total

[ QUOTE ]

hand 5
bet halfpot or smaller. he cant have a very big hand and will probly fold to a big bet. next best is to try to MoH him if hes really weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, new guy, he WAS really weak, (so I *should've* MoHed) but against a generic opponent the bet stands, 3 pt. 10 total.

[ QUOTE ]

hand 6
i like a small blockin bet because a small ace or a seven might call. of course, fold if you get raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well done. 2 more points for 12 total. You're in the lead for the great prize of 5 bucks. (you're also the first I've checked..)

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'll take a stab at the bet the river game /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Ok, Hand 1:

I'd go for option B, bet a bit less than 1/2 the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 for 2

[ QUOTE ]

Oops. You're right. On hand #2 I would check/cal to snap off a bluff from a missed flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

1 pt here. 3 total

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: ((MY EDIT: really 3))

B, but I think it's close and player dependent. A lot of people will bet their boat on the river there, fearing a check behind. I'm not sure what he's calling with there on the turn unless it's 77, 44, 22...An overpair would have surely bet the flop. Presumably UTG wouldn't have a 5. Yet his check on the river is throwing me off a bit. Against a loosie who could have a 5 UTG, I'll call the river checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

wooooo 2 more pts, 5 total

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 4:
Edited:
Option B.
He check-minraises you on the flop on T 2 2 board. Very weird. I think it could be a donk trying to play a flush draw like this (wouldn't be bad if the checkraise was for more than min amount, imo). I would expect to see a mid-pocket pair or flush draw out of this guy a decent portion of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 more, 8 now

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 5:
Option B, bet 1/2 the pot.
I play this a bit differently though. I'll definitely bet this flop heads up in position. Check behind on the turn and then value bet 1/2 to 2/3 the pot on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, played this a little differently, and I dont think pariculary well, your line is better. so 8, + 3 for the answer, 11 now.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 6:
Option D, throw a blocking bet out there and fold to a raise. I think you have the best hand a good portion of the time here.

So how did I do? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

KoW

[/ QUOTE ]

very well, 13 total. you're in the lead!

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 10:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1)A I want a cheap showdown and would hate getting c/r here

[/ QUOTE ]

0 pts. I still think this is a bet that goes uncalled most of the time, but the chance they have a BIG hand at this point is slim - with two pair / set / straight they (should) have shown either some aggression on the flop, or definately when I give some turn action. So yeah, a checkraise would be ugly, but I think this is a pos EV bet. I just didn't think it at the time ;x
[ QUOTE ]

2)B Induce a river bluff by missed flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

what I would do against a bigger stack, on the board with 1!

[ QUOTE ]

3)B I think you are ahead here most the time, but a c/r would probably indicate a boat

[/ QUOTE ] going to give the full 2 here, 3 total

[ QUOTE ]

4)A Check behind. Your stop and go on the turn indicates a lot of strength (I think), and your opponent still calls. If he missed a flush draw your not getting any more out of him, and if he has weak trips he could still have you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]if opponent was BB, or the board was T 5 5, I think your thinking is very valid and smart, but given a UTG limper and T 2 2, (and very straightforward player) I think checking is missing alot of value. (and yet I checked!) 1 total
[ QUOTE ]

5)B I'm value betting the nuts here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, nice! How much though!?!?! :P eh.. 2 total

[ QUOTE ]

6)D I'd toss in a blocking bet and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the last one is standard, I kinda wanted to bet more and really bleed top pair, but I think the current line / what everyone advises is in fact the best. 4 total. you, like me, need to work on our river play

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. If you think his turn bet means he paired his king then b. Otherwise I guess I'd check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

but what do you thinK! it's the name of the game.. you're playing the hand ;p i'll give ya a point

[ QUOTE ]

2. I'd put him all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

4 total now
[ QUOTE ]

3. hand 3 is tough because of his call of your turn bet. And when the river pairs the board--ugh. I guess I'm checking behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
0
[ QUOTE ]

4. Not sure what to make of the flop minraise (what did you think of it?). I guess I value bet for 20 to 26.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was a flush draw, or ANY pair just saying "I bet you're betting because you want to steal the pot, but I in fact have a pair!"

I (maybe) should've reraised, but I quickly called because I didn't want to bloat the pot in case I ran into bigger trips (like A2) because i felt if a draw hit i'd be able to use position to either lose the min or hopefully win the max. given i checked the river i give myself too much credit.

you get another 3 points. (7)
[ QUOTE ]

5. c or d. Maybe lean to d, let him think you are trying to push him around.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, pushing em around is fun... 1 more pt, 8 total
[ QUOTE ]

6. bet 8-10. If reraised, call or fold depending upon opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this. 10 total, good job, but not tops

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 10:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. A
2. C
3. B
4. B
5. B
6. B - and what are you doin in the pot with 74o? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

10 pts, nice job -

hey, curious about 6. why do you think check/calling is best?

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 10:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK I'll take a swing:

Hand 1: B - value bet as I think he has KJ, K10, busted flush or busted straight. If he comes over the top then reevaluate.

Hand 2: B - again I think weak K or busted flush draw, if so he'll probably fold to an all in push. I want to give him a chance to bluff away his stack.

Hand 3: C - I think you are tied at worst. I don't think villian has a boat. I put in a value bet and call if he comes over the top.

Hand 4: B - Value bet again. Fold if he comes over the top.

Hand 5: B - best chance of squeezing out value

Hand 6: D - throw out the block, fold to aggression

How'd I score?

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty good job! 12 points total i think

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 11:00 PM

12 pts i think, really good job!

BobboFitos

03-24-2005, 11:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My stab at this:

1. B, watch out for a big check-raise. This guy hit a good king, is laying a trap with a straight (why did he call the turn raise?), or he took a stab at the pot and was too dumb to let his hand go.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, in this situation if I value bet I have a very easy decision against a river check raise (which is, fold =) ) unless I've witnessed numerous river check raise bluffs. even then it's tough. (just to note, I have like 1 note on ONE player in my whole database who does this... alot... so this isn't something id worry about) 2 pts

[ QUOTE ]

2. C? Your stack size vs his stack size would mandate this, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, solid observation. alot of time something like noticing stack size in a particular hand can be the difference between an ok session and a good session. you're 5 for 5 so far

[ QUOTE ]

3. A He turn bet-called. Would worse hands call a good river bet with this board? This would be a tougher decision than some of the other hands and would be pretty dependant on the tendencies of this particular opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, would be player dependant. i think (knowing results) villain REALLY should've made a blocking bet, as I check behind with a few hands he beats which I would (maybe) call, but really im betting almost everything better then his hand. 5 still.
[ QUOTE ]

4. B Again the tendencies of your opponent make this interesting. He's straightforward according to your read. At first I was wondering if he was testing your pot sized bet on the flop with a raise, or perhaps he was on a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ] 8 total, good read
[ QUOTE ]

5. B This opponent's only put in 9 dollars into the pot so far, unless he has a strong hand like trips or a straight or an unlikely lesser flush he's probably not going to call a large bet. He's not shown much aggression yet either, maybe he'll call a decent value bet down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep! 11

[ QUOTE ]

6. D

This exercise is interesting, I look forward to seeing the results

[/ QUOTE ] oooh, you're tied with kow for the lead. i'll either have to give both you the prize (unless someone tops 13, of course) or have a tiebreaker

im going to watch a movie, i'll do the rest before i sleep. really nice aswers so far, everyone, btw. everyone did better then me =)

dtbog

03-24-2005, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he turned over 94o, for turned and then rivered 2 pair. I guess this guy was just the typical fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many $100 NL players call 3 BBs out of position with 94 offsuit?

I almost think misclick... are there players literally that bad at Stars 0.5/1??

-dB

grouchie

03-25-2005, 12:20 AM

in my idiocy, i replied without see'ing you posted results.
DOH, oh well, NH

Ok, my weak tight poker arse is going to give this a shot.

Hand #1 B
With him not betting the river I put him on a weaker King, Go for the value bet of about half the pot.

Hand #2 C
Put him all in. I don't like checking here because I think you'll get shown a busted flush draw most of the time.

Hand #3 B or C
I think this one is read dependant. He is a blind, so having 3-6, or (before the river) 2 pair involving a 5 are all easily in the realm with no raise preflop.

Hand #4 B
Bet about half the pot and fold to massive re-raise heat.
The re-raise on the flop has me worried about another 2. I don't know if he would be weak enough to limp with TT or QQ so i'm not worried about those hands. if he had 66 and caught on the river i'd expect HIM to put the value bet in.
In fact, if he had a boat I'd expect him to put a value bet in instead of checking. Most of the time I'd figure to take the pot uncontested or split with the Q and T not being outkicked.

Hand #5 B
I'm inclined to bet about half pot hoping for a big bet bluff from Villian. The way the hand played out, with checking on the flop it's conveivable that Villian can represent Diamonds here.

Hand #6 A
I'm took weak here to put the blocking bet up.

How awful are my results?

Allinlife

03-25-2005, 12:41 AM

thanks for the fun/informative post bobo! really enjoyed it.

BobboFitos

03-25-2005, 01:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he turned over 94o, for turned and then rivered 2 pair. I guess this guy was just the typical fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many $100 NL players call 3 BBs out of position with 94 offsuit?

I almost think misclick... are there players literally that bad at Stars 0.5/1??

-dB

[/ QUOTE ]

i was really shocked to see that, but there are several similar to that. it's all about identifying the type. there are some people who routinely make 8 to 10 x bb raises pf... very easy to exploit

BobboFitos

03-25-2005, 02:15 AM

7 total points. did very well the last few hands

BobboFitos

03-25-2005, 02:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There must be some way to score it monetarily... ie... everyone starts with $100. The hands are played in progression. And your stack changes depending on how each hand played out. The person at the end with the most chips wins.

The only thing we can't know is the effect of bets when you didnt bet... ie... would a pot sized bet have cause opponent to fold where a 1/2 bet might have led to a call. I think, Bobby, you'll have to make some assumptions on how the hand would have played out based on his hand and your read on him.

I look forward to hearing how it all came out.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, thats a good idea. if anyone has any idea how to change the points, that would be cool.

for 4 of the 6 hands (I think) I feel no matter the situation there is a "best" play, in the other two, (i think main two are top pair when guy is very very short stack and other is AK making nuts on river when villain somehow had two pair) there is a good play for most hands and then the best hand for that situation...

BobboFitos

03-25-2005, 02:25 AM

i think 7 pts. i could be off.

BobboFitos

03-25-2005, 02:29 AM

Ooof, 12 pts. Perfect all around except for backing into the nuts hand, but I definately think MoH could be good in circumstances. So bonus point. So you're tied with kow and jmbills

BobboFitos

03-25-2005, 02:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey all -

After I posted my responses I read those of others... and I'm curious which hands call the 1/2 pot bet on Hand 5 (option B) but don't call a big overbet.

1/2 pot sort of looks like value-betting the nuts.. which is exactly what it would be. I might be underestimating villain here, but I think if he's calling this much with his lower flush, he'll call more. If he hit a straight -- he doesn't call an overbet, but I doubt he calls 1/2 pot. There's also the possibility that he simply doesn't believe you, and does call with the straight/two pair/whatever.

Remember, the overbet has to be called about 1/4 as often as the half-pot bet to make it more +EV. I pull a Wayfare here.

Comments? Disagreements?

-dB

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think though that the vast majority of times, given the blind has called pf, checked flop, checked turn, called turn, then checked river, (passive line at every avenue) it's really optimistic to assume he has a big hand. (Of course, this happened to be a major fish who did have a legit hand...) I also think a sheriff-type player will always call that river bet (midpot) with ANY pair.

BobboFitos

03-25-2005, 02:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the fun/informative post bobo! really enjoyed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

no prob =) We have a three way tie though for first... I'll either just send 5 bucks to all three (most likely) or have a tiebreak. im going to bed soon, but maybe i'll post some tiebreak hands for them ?

dtbog

03-25-2005, 02:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
or have a tiebreak.

[/ QUOTE ]

He who can insult the other posters' mothers in the most creative way gets the money AND the respect of the board?

Eh? Eh? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-dB

JMBills

03-25-2005, 03:00 AM

Yeah, DT, yo momma's worse at poker than she was in bed last night (burn)

xorbie

03-25-2005, 03:28 AM

Before I read everything else, here goes...

Hand 1: The ony 8 I can put him on is 68 or 810, although if he has either of these he is likely trying for a checkraise.

There also aren't a lot of hands there that call a bet but lose though. Does just a K call? Unless this guy is super loose, no. KJ, K10 might, that's probably it.

I'd choose B. It's far more likely he is behind, and his call on the turn is most likely a missed draw, but at least that way you don't have to show down and give away information.

***

Hand 2: Same as above, he probably has a missed draw, or a K looking for a cheap showdown, so I choose A and you checking let's him possibly bet his missed draw or lesser king. I can't really see him have anything but a set here that beats you.

***

Hand 3:

His overbet on the flop seems like either two pair or a made straight, so I would bet here and fold to a massive checkraise.

***

Hand 4: Tough hand. It's hard to believe an UTG player has a 2, but I can't really see him having anything else, save AT. I'd bet out half pot here, just because I can't see him playing this way with anything but a hand he'd never play UTG.

****

Hand 5: Again, can't see him having anything great here. Maybe spades, maybe straight draw, maybe a 7. Bet half pot, hope for a call.

****

Hand 6:

Between C or D. Depends on how big his raise is. Call a min-raise, fold to a huge raise. He could very well have just a decent A here.

xorbie

03-25-2005, 03:45 AM

Ah, I see I'm too late here. Shame.

At least I put that one guy on AT.

swolfe

03-25-2005, 10:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand number 1
A. Check - it may be a leak in my game, but i have trouble value betting one pair hands on the river when i can check and see if the pot is mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

0/0

[ QUOTE ]
Hand number 2 (another KQ)
B. Check with the intention of calling a bet - i like to induce bets

[/ QUOTE ]

doh, i didn't look at his stack size...

1/1

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3 (hit my card for free)
A. Check behind - i don't know. what hand will call a bet here that we beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

weak...0/1

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4
A. Check - again, what hand would call a bet that we're ahead of?

[/ QUOTE ]

grrr. the raise messed me up -2/-1

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 5
C. full pot (range of 17 to 20) - hope he pushes his stack in

[/ QUOTE ]

1/0

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 6 (last one)
C. Fire a bet 6 to 10 with the intention of calling a raise - i think you're good here often enough to call a reasonable raise

[/ QUOTE ]

0/0

total - 0 points /images/graemlins/frown.gif

oh well...

Jazza

03-25-2005, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. A
2. C
3. B
4. B
5. B
6. B - and what are you doin in the pot with 74o? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

10 pts, nice job -

hey, curious about 6. why do you think check/calling is best?

[/ QUOTE ]

What can you beat? A weak Ace

Given his preflop limp, his flop check, and his turn call it really didn't look like he had the ace, so are you trying to get called by a King? If I have a King I find it hard to call on the river here, so IMO any river bet is a bluff/block bet

Edit: btw this is jimdmcevoy, just changed my username