View Full Version : Live 4/8 hand. Missed opportunity?
GreywolfNYC
03-24-2005, 01:11 PM
Live 4/8 game in NYC. UTG is a young Asian guy who seems okay but who is definitely on tilt. His hands have been getting cracked all night long. MP is a 2+2er and a very good player. LP is a loose, calling station.
I'm in the BB when UTG posts a live straddle. I'm dealt 7h9h.
MP calls the two bets, as does the player to her left, and the LP player. I call the extra bet and now UTG raises. We all call and on one hand I'm thinking, "Now we've got a nice multiway pot for three bets" and, on the other, "What am I doing here with this stupid hand?" Four of us see the flop.
3 6 8 rainbow.
UTG is reaching for his chips and I check. UTG bets, we all call.
Turn: 10
I start reaching for chips and UTG bets out of turn. I say, "Wait a sec, I haven't acted yet." I bet and everyone calls.
River: J
I lead, UTG calls with a sigh, 2+2er folds, guy to her left folds, LP calls. MHIG.
On the flop I could have led out. I could have checkraised. Who does which and why?
Did I miss an opportunity to checkraise the turn? Or was my line the right one? Comments please.
Fat Nicky
03-24-2005, 01:16 PM
I'd checkraise, especially since UTG was ready to bet, you could trap anyone who calls UTGs bet for 2 bets with the nuts.
meep_42
03-24-2005, 01:17 PM
Yeah, you missed an opportunity to check-raise the turn. With UTG looking to be out there, and on tilt, it's likely he was going to bet the turn if he didn't encounter resistence, so I don't so much like a check-raise on the flop, though it can be debated.
Next time, let him bet out of turn and get yourself a few more BBs.
-d
edtost
03-24-2005, 01:25 PM
flop's ok, but not checkraising the turn is like burning money.
Jeffage
03-24-2005, 01:28 PM
I would have checkraised the field on the flop for value.Since you didn't...On the turn when you see him betting out of turn b/f you acted, I would have just acted like it didn't matter cause I was checking. Then checkraise the whole goddamn field. The other thing is...why we're you reaching for chips in the first place. This checkraise seems like a no-brainer.
Jeff
DemonDeac
03-24-2005, 01:28 PM
you need to c/r the turn cuz of the fact everyone will prolly call the UTG's bet and then will call ur raise. mo money, my friend
[ QUOTE ]
I start reaching for chips and UTG bets out of turn. I say, "Wait a sec, I haven't acted yet." I bet and everyone calls.
[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Part of playing live games is using this stuff to your advantage. I was playing at the mirage last week and flopped top set from UTG after raising preflop. BB bets, before I can do anything an MP player behind me announces "raise." I call, he raises, 3 calls, I 3 bet. You have to take advantage of that kind of thing when it arises.
Checkraise the frop, checkraise the turn. For the love of all that is good and holy checkraise the turn given how the action played out.
And the MP coldcall of a straddle is atrocious.
sinfulslick18
03-24-2005, 03:39 PM
DEF. C/R the turn. you could of gotten more money out of all those players.
-sinful
GreywolfNYC
03-24-2005, 04:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I start reaching for chips and UTG bets out of turn. I say, "Wait a sec, I haven't acted yet." I bet and everyone calls.
[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Part of playing live games is using this stuff to your advantage. I was playing at the mirage last week and flopped top set from UTG after raising preflop. BB bets, before I can do anything an MP player behind me announces "raise." I call, he raises, 3 calls, I 3 bet. You have to take advantage of that kind of thing when it arises.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very good comment, Evan, and one that I agree with. If I could reply this hand I would definitely c/r the turn. It just happened so quickly that I didn't slow down for a second to use my head before I thew the chips out.
Jeffage
03-24-2005, 04:26 PM
Why wouldn't you plan to checkraise this turn even without the extra information?
Jeff
colgin
03-24-2005, 05:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
For the love of all that is good and holy checkraise the turn given how the action played out.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree 100%. Nothing good can come from you insisting on betting out here. You have perfect position on the tilter to trap everyone for 2 bets here. If you bet everyone may just call (as they did) or, worse, tilter may raise and knock out everybody who is drawing dead (or near dead) to your hand.
I would c/raise the flop; however, if you do, wouldn't you just bet out the turn unless you saw him reaching for chips...would hate to see that turn check through.
imported_stealthcow
03-24-2005, 05:53 PM
the only time i woudln't c/r that turn is if there is now 2 to a flush. then i'd bet and hope that utg raises you.
stealthcow-
colgin
03-24-2005, 06:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
the only time i woudln't c/r that turn is if there is now 2 to a flush. then i'd bet and hope that utg raises you.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand this. His raise (if he makes it) isn't going to knock out any flush draws, although it may knock out players who can't beat Hero. Hero should still try to trap the whole field for 2 BB's each. He will either be drawn out on or not; there is nothing he can do about that.
GreywolfNYC
03-24-2005, 09:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
the only time i woudln't c/r that turn is if there is now 2 to a flush. then i'd bet and hope that utg raises you.
stealthcow-
[/ QUOTE ]
That was the case, but UTG didn't raise me.
bernie
03-25-2005, 02:56 AM
It's a live straddle? I haven't seen one of those in awhile.
Working my way down the thread, so this may be redundant.
Flop: c/r. EASY c/r. There's a possible 1.5 bets missed.
Turn: Since you didn't AND you see the guy reaching for chips, another EASY c/r. What the hell are you betting out when you have this info for? There's another possible 3 bets missed.
Total possible missed bets? 2+ This could be higher depending on the action after your first c/r along with the possibility of folds to your c/r on either the flop or turn. If the guy is really overaggro, you could go for another c/r on the turn after doing it on the flop. (ie...visual reads like you had)
Nice hatchet job though.
b
bernie
03-25-2005, 03:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
the only time i woudln't c/r that turn is if there is now 2 to a flush. then i'd bet and hope that utg raises you.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd do it even then. The UTG is less likely to raise you at this point. He will figure you have something to be betting into him after him being the aggressor.
Think 'effective' odds at this point. 2 bets on the turn to see the river is good. Even if they have to put them in 1 at a time their effective odds are cut.
b
GreywolfNYC
03-25-2005, 12:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's a live straddle? I haven't seen one of those in awhile.
Working my way down the thread, so this may be redundant.
Flop: c/r. EASY c/r. There's a possible 1.5 bets missed.
Turn: Since you didn't AND you see the guy reaching for chips, another EASY c/r. What the hell are you betting out when you have this info for? There's another possible 3 bets missed.
Total possible missed bets? 2+ This could be higher depending on the action after your first c/r along with the possibility of folds to your c/r on either the flop or turn. If the guy is really overaggro, you could go for another c/r on the turn after doing it on the flop. (ie...visual reads like you had)
Nice hatchet job though.
b
[/ QUOTE ]
Nah. Just half a hatchet job. I agree with you about the turn c/r but not the flop. The guy who straddled was not a total maniac, just an otherwise decent player on tilt. A c/r on the flop would have knocked out the 2+2er and the guy on her left, most likely, on the turn. It was close between leading or check/calling so I chose check/calling and I thik it was the correct decision. Nothing to gain by check raising the flop.
bernie
03-25-2005, 08:50 PM
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Nothing to gain by check raising the flop.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? There are 15 bets in the pot. (5 players in) If the others call, it's a value raise on your draw. If they fold, then hitting a 7 or 9 may win it for you if other overcards also hit. Also if they fold to a single bet coming back to them after getting raised, getting around 20-1 on their calls, that's a good thing. It's a mistake for them to fold, but again, value for you if they call.
You might also be able to c/r the turn again if you see the guy reaching for chips.
[ QUOTE ]
A c/r on the flop would have knocked out the 2+2er and the guy on her left, most likely, on the turn.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure what you mean by this. A flop c/r knocking them out on the turn? ok. You might have combined 2 sentences here.
If they call the flop c/r, and you hit the str8, they likely have many hands they are drawing dead with that you don't want to knock them out on the turn with.
C/r this flop, then leading on the turn, they won't likely put you on a str8.
b
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