Satellites for fun and profit

[AtticusFinch]

For those of you who often make the final table but can't seem to get into the serious money, you might consider playing satellites. Most sites will let you keep playing them after you win your chip -- if you place you get the entry fee in cash. These usually amount to 10 buyins, which is not a bad score for a small satellite.

Advantages:

1) These tend to be VERY soft
2) They're a lot shorter, cause once you get down to the final X, it's pretty much over. You skip the prolonged final table battle.
3) The top 7-8 people often get the equivalent of 3rd place money, which is great for someone who habitually finishes 5th-6th
4) If you build up a big stack, you can go into autopilot and "fold in," allowing you to multitable easier, etc.
5) You get to play the big money tourneys, which may turn your small satellite investment into an enormous score.

Disadvantages:

If you never practice final table play, you'll never get past the issue. But, as Adanthar points out (and others such as Howard Lederer have said), you can practice final table play by playing SNGs. Plus, you still have to play the big tourney with the first entry you win, so who knows?

Anyway, I'm thinking of giving this a try just to see how it goes. Is anyone else doing this? I'd love to hear a report if you are.

EDIT: By the way, tt's pretty clear from the context, but I'm talking specifically about multi-table satellites here.

[ZBTHorton]

Yep.

[LethalRose]

I thought at most sites you get entered into that tournament and cannot unregister to get the cash. have they recently changed it? by they i mean party/empire

[Jurollo]

That is true for the first entry. Subsequent ones you get cash equivalent, I think that is what he meant.
~Justin

[LethalRose]

ah ok

[slickpoppa]

At stars I believe you get W$ if you qualify twice. This is as good as cash if you use those W$ dollars for other satellites that you would normally pay cash for. Like if you qualify for the WSOP twice, you could use the extra W$ to qualify or buy-in to a later WPT event.

[Jurollo]

Well you don't even need to use the first entry @ stars, you can unregister for T$ or W$ depending on the event, I think we all should know that by now. Party and skins just make you use the first entry and give cash equivalents for subsequent ones.
~Justin

[HoldingFolding]

Interesting, this fits my present profile exactly. However, I'll usually use the entry up before getting a new one. Are you saying if I get a 2nd enry I can convert it into real cash? How does it work? (Party Poker)

[LethalRose]

so lets say on empire I qualify twice for the 200K guaranteed, id get the buyin price back the second time i qualify

[LethalRose]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting, this fits my present profile exactly. However, I'll usually use the entry up before getting a new one. Are you saying if I get a 2nd enry I can convert it into real cash? How does it work? (Party Poker)

[/ QUOTE ]

you can only play a tournament once, so if you win more than one entry to the same tournament party poker just gives you the buyin back into your br.

right?

[Jurollo]

[ QUOTE ]
so lets say on empire I qualify twice for the 200K guaranteed, id get the buyin price back the second time i qualify

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes 2nd entry for $200K gets automatically turned into $270 real money.
~Justin

[Tim H]

for those that play AbsolutePOker

don't try this at AbsolutePoker:
Thank you for your email. As stated in rule 15 of our multi table tourneys: Players who have won their seats through a satellite can not unregister.

There is no cash equivalent to winning two entries and entries do not roll over so please if you have won an entry to the main event do not try to win another until it is for the next event.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
for those that play AbsolutePOker

don't try this at AbsolutePoker:
Thank you for your email. As stated in rule 15 of our multi table tourneys: Players who have won their seats through a satellite can not unregister.

There is no cash equivalent to winning two entries and entries do not roll over so please if you have won an entry to the main event do not try to win another until it is for the next event.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this is also the case at UB, where they warn you not to play in two sats.

[betgo]

On Paradise, you have to play if you win an entry. I don't know what they do if you win two.

[sdplayerb]

i do great in the supersats at pokerstars.
over my last 20 or so (and that is about all i've played) i am right around 50%.
i think part of it is i am very good tacticly when near the bubble. i know when you must fold and when others must fold so i can steal.
many have no clue and think they have to stay in at times when they shouldn't even be in the hand, it is great.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

There is no cash equivalent to winning two entries and entries do not roll over so please if you have won an entry to the main event do not try to win another until it is for the next event.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this is also the case at UB, where they warn you not to play in two sats.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, so caveat emptor, and check your site's policy before trying. Good to know.

In any case, I think most sites have the general policy that you have to play the first one you win, but you get the cash for subsequent ones. Suits me.

This is the ONLY way I have afforded Party's Guaranteed 250K and Mil tourneys. I wouldn't consider them "VERY" soft though as it could still take a good 4 hours to qualify for the 10 or so seats depending on the number of original entries.

Fun? Yes! Profit? Not yet. I have not cashed in yet in the 7 or 8 guaranteeds I have entered. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[coleco]

at stars I qualified in their WSOP 2+rebuy for the 33+3r for a WSOP seat. Well since the sat. was so late at night and I had to work the next morning I just unregistered and the $33 was in my account instantly.

[Msogard]

Is it feasible to play the PP guaranteed satellites and qualify for <$50/night?

You will find at least 1 $11 and 1 $22 sats for the quarter and mil guaranteed every night. No rebuys at Party. I think 11:30 PM and 00:AM EST. There me some earlier but I am not sure. Just check the Special Tourney board.

[HatesLosing]

Satellites seem like a good deal but they're really not IMO. Psychologically it's harder to put up the entry fee on your own and you feel as if you saved money, but think about this to:

Suppose you are pretty good at these things and can consistently make it 1 in 10 times in a big satellite that pays out an entry for 1 in 24 entrants. You're obviously way above average, since if all things were equal you'd get that tourney entry just 1 in 24 times.

Let's say it's a saellite for a tourney with a $200+$15 entry fee and the satellite itself costs $9+$1. "WOO-HOO!", you shout, because you can save $115 in entry fees, right? Wrong. You just played poker for maybe 20 hours and all you made was $115. How much could you have made playing cash games in 20 hours? A LOT more than $115 if you have any kind of roll at all (which you should if you are any good any have been playing for any amount of time). You would have made enough to put up your entry fee and still have profit left over.

Satellites can be fun though, I admit, and there is something psychologically disturbing about putting up your own hard earned money for a tourney that is a larger buy-in than what you would typically play in, but you just have to sit down at the ring games with a mindset of "I'm going to win myself enough money to enter into this tournament".

[sloshr]

I don't really agree with your logic in the 20 hours, but I do agree with part of your concept.

I play mostly no limit hold em right now @ lower limits, $10 max buy-in on UB, $25 max buy-in on PartyPoker. I'll be first to admit, I don't have a big bankroll, but since I got smarter about my playing habits (mostly from my initial visits to 2+2 and finally buying and reading some of the poker books) it's stopped dropping and started growing.

Last week, I wanted to enter a satellite, so I first won the satellite entry fee from the cash games. I then bought into the $10+1 on UB and came in the top 5 in order to get one of the entries to the $200+15. I then finished 93rd out of 615 - which, I know exactly the hands I made mistakes on, if I could replay 3-4 hands, I'd have finished in the money.

This week I did it again - I had a particularly good run the other day, so I took $10 from the winnings and entered a satellite - I ended up in the top group and got a $215 entry into next Sundays $200+15.

I feel it would be foolish for me to just drop $10 out of my bankroll that I hadn't won from cash games to go into these satellites - but when the satellite only took 2 hours of game time and I'm playing with other peoples money, doesn't that make sense to go that way?

Long drawn out post. Sorry. It just seems there could be a middleground.

[HatesLosing]

It's going to take you much longer than 2 hours, on average, to qualify for a large MTT through a large MTT Satellite (which is what the original post was referring to if I read it correctly).

These MTT Satellites run 1 at a time, so you cannot multi-table them. They are large MTTs themselves, so you cannot expect to make "the money" as often as you have on a consistent basis. You will often miss out and have spent hours on the satellite to lose a small buy-in when you could have been making your typical hourly rate playing cash games.

Making 2 out of 3, as you did, is incredibly unrealistic in the long run. Yes, if you have a small bankroll and you can consistently win a satellite 2 out of 3 times, then you are making out well and should keep playing them. The more you play these things, the more you will realize that 2 out of 3 is not anywhere close to being attainable though.

Just moneying 2 out of 3 times in a SnG is unattainable in the long run, and this ain't no SnG! They are cheap and good practice, so keep playing them if you're having fun and you'll notice eventually (if you're a good cash game player who can play NL $200 or higher) that they aren't as good a deal as they might appear at first.

I think the middle ground is that if you don't have a big bankroll and want to play in a tournament that is much too expensive for you, then this is your only way in.

[ QUOTE ]
Satellites seem like a good deal but they're really not IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to Moneymaker, Raymer and the numerous 2+2ers who have played in the Caribbean, Monte Carlo, etc. With a very few exceptions (like Raymer who I think posted that he would have gone anyway) won their seats through satellites.

[AtticusFinch]

The satellites I play have about 45-60 people in them and take 1.5-2 hours on average. About 5-7 people get seats -- 1 per every 9 entrants. From what I've seen so far, a 25% qualify rate does not seem unachievable. They're that soft.

Let's cut that down to 20%, though. So for every 5 you play, you pay 5 buyins and win 9. That's an ROI of 80%. Assuming they take the full 2 hours every time, that's a 40% ROI per hour, which is better than the best SNG player can manage.

Of course these are $24 buyin sats. I'm sure the bigger money ones are not nearly as soft. But the point is, there's money to be made here, if you pick the right games.

[mikeshoe]

I have played single table qualifiers to get into the Party quarter mill. I think it was $24+2. Anyway, so after I won the first someone at the table told me if I won any more they would buy back the entry fee. I think I ended up playing 7 of them, winning 4 and finishing 2nd in 1 other (which gets you $25 back). Anyway, made for a nice little profit, and because it was single table, didnt take nearly as long.