Higher Stakes flop decision

[NYplayer]

There are 3 limpers and you limp on the button with 6h7h, SB folds, big blind checks.

5 players, 5.5 sbs in pot.
flop: 4d 5c 6c

it is checked to the cuttof who bets, do you fold, call, or raise?

[bicyclekick]

raise

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
There are 3 limpers and you limp on the button with 6h7h, SB folds, big blind checks.

5 players, 5.5 sbs in pot.
flop: 4d 5c 6c

it is checked to the cuttof who bets, do you fold, call, or raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

is there something im missing here?? this seems like the best situation you could ask for for your small pair. raise.

-Barron

[stoxtrader]

damn, I must be wrong on this one. I was right on the other though so nananannananan

[lostinthought]

what virtues does calling have here?

seems like an easy raise to me..

[haakee]

Jack it up. You might have the best hand and you can knock out people drawing to overcards.

[JAA]

NYPlayer..

I'm not trying to be a dick, and by no means am I a great player... But if you are debating the move here, I don't know if you should be playing in higher stakes games. Definite definite raise.

- Jags

[NYplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
NYPlayer..

I'm not trying to be a dick, and by no means am I a great player... But if you are debating the move here, I don't know if you should be playing in higher stakes games. Definite definite raise.

- Jags

[/ QUOTE ]

It turns out a very solid player thought it was a clear call. Anytime a very solid player thinks that something you think is correct is wrong you have to ask yourself if you have potential leak or if they are overlooking something. Since i don't like to automatically suppose i'm correct i posted it here.

[fearme]

raise

[fearme]

i don't think a call here is bad at all actually, but then again i might not be a solid player, but if ur 6 isn't good then i would rather have callers behind u since ur drawing to an open ended

[stoxtrader]

I like a call, but not as much as I first did /images/graemlins/smile.gif

With a bigger pot it is a sure raise.

[jayheaps]

i think a call-reraise line here has some merit. Theory being that you will make more if you hit your hit and 2 clubs will like raise it for you. At middle levels, a definitely raise, at higher level i'd be 50/50 between calling and raising-- the more aggressive the table, the more i lean to calling

[Paluka]

I'm going to disagree with most of the posters and say that I think raising and calling are pretty close.

[stoxtrader]

with the pot as small as it is, relative to the number of players in, I think shutting out overcards in return for decreasing implied odds if you do hit your straight, makes a call at least worth thinking about. Not to mentino the time you are dominated by an overpair or better 6 and simply let poeple make correct folds to get it heads-up when you are behind.

with a two flush on the board, A raise has more merit, but i think it is close.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]


with a two flush on the board, A raise has more merit, but i think it is close.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not even sure the flush draw being on board means that a raise has merit. You aren't even a favorite over a big flush draw, and the obviously aren't going to fold if you raise the flop. If you are against a higher pair and a flush draw, you are in pretty bad shape.

[astroglide]

i think 1sb to knock out overcards, gutshots, backdoor draws, etc is a good deal

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
i think 1sb to knock out overcards, gutshots, backdoor draws, etc is a good deal

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are already losing this isn't a good deal. And there was no raise preflop, so it isn't clear to me why gutshots and overcards calling is bad for you. And not only do you have a 7 which is a gutshot card for some gutters, if a 7 comes you have redraw outs.

[astroglide]

as you say, there wasn't a raise preflop so it's not likely that you're facing a bigger pair. redraws are very overrated when you're facing a straight on the turn (raises and all) as well as a high proclivity to pay off heads up.

[Paluka]

Overpairs aren't likely, but it would not be surprising for someone to have 44,55,66,77,88, or 99.

[astroglide]

i think calling on the basis that somebody may have flopped a set or didn't raise 77-99 preflop is pretty scared thinking. it's a lock to have overcards/backdoors behind.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
i think calling on the basis that somebody may have flopped a set or didn't raise 77-99 preflop is pretty scared thinking. it's a lock to have overcards/backdoors behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not being scared. My point is that the pot is so small, that it isn't ever clear that you are losing money if overcards call the flop. If they hit on the turn you have a ton of ways to beat them on the river, if they miss on the turn they fold on the turn unimproved.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
i think calling on the basis that somebody may have flopped a set or didn't raise 77-99 preflop is pretty scared thinking. it's a lock to have overcards/backdoors behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about adding X6 with x anything higher than a 7 to that range?

i think you want to fold 6 outers, but you give them up as customers if you do make a straight. I don't think you want backdoor draws alon to fold giving 6:1.

[ggbman]

Why wouldn't you raise here?

[astroglide]

i misread the post, the 5 players 5.5sbs thing etc must have thrown me. i thought it was 556, not 456. i think it is closer between calling and raising but i would still lean toward raising. i'm pleased if people fold and i'm also pleased if bad people cold call.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
i misread the post, the 5 players 5.5sbs thing etc must have thrown me. i thought it was 556, not 456. i think it is closer between calling and raising but i would still lean toward raising. i'm pleased if people fold and i'm also pleased if people cold call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh.
Anyway, I think this hand is pretty interesting. I would love to be convinced one way or another.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
There are 3 limpers and you limp on the button with 6h7h, SB folds, big blind checks.

5 players, 5.5 sbs in pot.
flop: 4d 5c 6c

it is checked to the cuttof who bets, do you fold, call, or raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

thinking about it a little more deeply:

if you call all other callers (3 of them) are getting 7,8,9:1 on a call respectively. if you raise, they get 9.5:2 or 4.25, 5.25, 6.25:1

you dont mind having only b'd draws and gutters call that much when its 7.5:1...but when its 9.5:1, they are getting yea about the correct price to peel one. when you call, you gain the ability to raise a favorable turn and save money and not get 3bet when a good draw does it and you may be behind now. ... but when you raise, you vastly increase your Pr(winning the pot), which, in this small pot, isn't the most important think in the world relative to playing correctly & saving/making bets.

i like a raise because youd rather lose some callers behind than give the person getting 8 or 9.5:1 assuming all call the correct price to play against you.

of course you do make those bets up if its bet to you on a favorable turn from the CO and you raise then b/c they didn't make their hand and aren't calling the 2 cold but may still stick around for 1 more getting about 7:1 assuming all call and same acion on the turn. but now we do seethat you make money when you just call the flop and force overcards/gutters to call only 1 bet if not all 3 call on the flop because they are clearly not getting the correct odds...BUT on a 456 board, 89 would be getting the right price if you had A6...but since you have 76, you make a good deal of money from 98 when it calls the turn for 1 bet but would have folded for a raise b/c its 8 is no good.

anyways, i now think a call may be in order whereas i first thought it was a raise...but if you put 2 more sbs (two more limpers) in that pot i like a raise.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i misread the post, the 5 players 5.5sbs thing etc must have thrown me. i thought it was 556, not 456. i think it is closer between calling and raising but i would still lean toward raising. i'm pleased if people fold and i'm also pleased if people cold call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh.
Anyway, I think this hand is pretty interesting. I would love to be convinced one way or another.

[/ QUOTE ]

i looked at this again and jsut posted a more indepth thought on it...i dont think you'll be entirely convinced b/c its effing close. small things can tip it one way or the other...with ONE more caller i think it may still be a call but then the last caller gets 10 or 11:1 on the flop...not really great but with 2 more lijmpers you can't allow that last caller or two to get 11 or 12:1...

-Barron

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think calling on the basis that somebody may have flopped a set or didn't raise 77-99 preflop is pretty scared thinking. it's a lock to have overcards/backdoors behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about adding X6 with x anything higher than a 7 to that range?

i think you want to fold 6 outers, but you give them up as customers if you do make a straight. I don't think you want backdoor draws alon to fold giving 6:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many "customers" are you gonna get in a 5-way limped pot with 3 or more taking the turn and a 4-liner hitting the board?