Zoo WSOP 2005 raffle

[Tuco]

Anyone interested in going in a "raffle" for the WSOP? I asked this question before and there seemed to be some interest. I'm currently talking to pokerstars about setting it up. No juice. 100 people at $100 a ticket for one seat. If there is any interest we could probably start having them by next week.

Would give us an extra person(s) to sweat. We could stipulate that they have to wear a pink tie dye shirt with "zoo" all over it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Any interest? Thoughts?

Tuco.

[Bob L]

I'm in.

[r3vbr]

no juice? im in

[Seether]

id be in

[Jim Kuhn]

I am in.

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u
/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[busguy]

count me in

/images/graemlins/cool.gif busguy

[ace_in_the_hole]

I'll play, would the entry be set up for the winner or would they just get 10k cash?

[Tuco]

It would be a non-cashable entry via pokerstars (if they agree).

Tuco.

[jasonHoldEm]

I'm feeling lucky.

[billyjex]

Sounds like a cool idea. I'm in as well. How would the "raffle" be drawn? By pokerstars?

[Dariel86]

Great idea!

[Reef]

is a MTT possible?

[J_B]

MTT? I'm in.

[BIGRED]

Is it a random drawing or are we playing for it? In anycase, count me in.

[TheMetetron]

The hell... I'm bored. I'm in.

[VinnyTheFish]

ummmm .... yes! I am in like a college kid with a straight flush!

[moondogg]

I'm in

[VinnyTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]
Would give us an extra person(s) to sweat. We could stipulate that they have to wear a pink tie dye shirt with "zoo" all over it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

umm ... if I win, please do not make me wear a pink shirt. I'll wear a Granny Mae shirt, but no pink!

p.s. I do not look good in tie-dye!

<font color="red"> &lt;---- Holy cow, this is post 666 </font>

[ttleistdci]

sounds good

[Phishy McFish]

But I'm in

[PennDisc]

[ QUOTE ]
is a MTT possible?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing they'd want to charge a tourney fee if they were running a MTT.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is a MTT possible?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing they'd want to charge a tourney fee if they were running a MTT.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, this would still be better than a crap shoot. I wouldn't want someone like me to win the thing - a fishy - compared to the pros that play in it.

[bonanz]

i don't think the idea of playing in a tourney with 1000 2+2ers is an appealing one. lol

i'd be down for either a tourney or a $100 raffle. how will you verify everyone is 21+? i would hate to contribute to someone underage to get there, get carded get asked to leave.

[RollaJ]

Im In if it happens, and Id like to propose a little twist.......

What if the "losers" of the raffle had a 50% piece of the winner of the raffle.... basically the winner would be our "horse" in the race.


.....Damn thats a great idea!

[jon593]

i dont think anyone under 21 would be dumb enough to put up $100 when they are not going to be able to play in it. i know im not. damn i wish i was 21

[billyjex]

[ QUOTE ]
Im In if it happens, and Id like to propose a little twist.......

What if the "losers" of the raffle had a 50% piece of the winner of the raffle.... basically the winner would be our "horse" in the race.


[/ QUOTE ]

The thing about this.. is that this person would be getting screwed. When someone has to give up 50% of their prize -- thats because someone bought them out for $5000 before the tourney so that player was guaranteed something/pay for expenses. I wouldn't want to pay $100 for a raffle ticket if I'm expected to give up 50% of my winnings. Unless you want to give me $5000.

[dlk9s]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it a random drawing or are we playing for it? In anycase, count me in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raffle = drawing

[VinnyTheFish]

If I won the raffle, then made some money, I would do something to thank all the other 99 involved, while repaying some kind of stake. I do not know what the "norm" is here.

i.e. hold a private freeroll where everyone made money and then some!

[Tuco]

I emailed Lee Jones yesterday about this idea and bringing it to stars for several reasons. First and foremost being that most of us have an account there. IMO it would be great for them, as it would increase their chances of having the winner come from there..

He emailed me back today with some concerns and asked me to wait for a couple weeks.

Don't really want to wait too long so im wondering if I should approach a site like Truepoker (where I dont even have an account) to host it.

Alternatively, we could do it without a sites' help.

Thoughts?

Tuco.

[sfwusc]

I think it should be a high Card MTT /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ten tables... high card win

Final table... high card the winner of the seat.

Guys I would do and maybe I can if I get some hot cards, but I just cashed out part of my roll. (getting back to atleast 2/4 is important right now)

SWUSC

[jon593]

even though i cant be part of this as im not 21 i have a suggestion:

if you are going to do this i dont think it would hurt to add 20 or so more players to pay for hotel and airfare.

[Rick Diesel]

But you would also be getting .5% of the winnings for the 99 times out of 100 that you do not win the drawing.

[Phishy McFish]

While I only took 1 business law class in college, it was the only A+ I ever got......I like to argue. And I do remember something along the lines of a "gambling" contract is not a legal contract.....if I remember correctly the, the Prof. used the example of lottery groups in offices where one person buys the tickets but a bunch of people throw in money......the textbook answer was that if the "owner" of the ticket was a prick, then the others were S.O.L.

Please correct me if/when/where I am wrong.

Oh...just to wade through my ramblings, my question is, how do you KNOW the guy is going to pay back the cut they owe you if they win?

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it a random drawing or are we playing for it? In anycase, count me in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raffle = drawing

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but some people mentioned playing for the seat... so I wasn't sure. I'd probably have a better chance if it were a random draw, hehe /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
how do you KNOW the guy is going to pay back the cut they owe you if they win?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the problem with a share plan. Originally I was thinking this would be great, but unfortunatly there is no way to be sure that the winner will honor the deal. I mean, if people are going to short the tsunami fund then they will short anything.

My next thought about going forward without stars is this. We all send someone like granny the money. Then we start having elimination rounds of ten player "tables". So the 100 people are divided into ten tables of ten. Then we asign each person a number between 0 and 9. To pick a player from each group we could use the last digit from the hand number from the next partypoker BB jackpot hit (or some other random event). Repeat for "final table" of the ten winners. Granny then transfers the 10 dimes to the winners stars account and winner is free to buy in or cash out.

After typing that all out it seems a little convoluted. If anyone else has any other ideas im all ears.

Failing that, we could wait for stars to come around at the end of April.

Tuco.

[IggyWH]

If it's a raffle, I'm down...

Hell, that's a whole 700 raked hands on Party during a bonus to pay for it. I would think we'd be able to get 100 people.

[moondogg]

Can we buy multiple raffle tickets?

Any side-bets on the odds certain posters will win the raffle? Nothin' but nothin' beats bettin' on bettin' /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
Can we buy multiple raffle tickets?


[/ QUOTE ]

For sure. After we give enough time for all to enter, rebuys would be encouraged.

[ QUOTE ]
Any side-bets on the odds certain posters will win the raffle?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. A poop sheet. I can just see it. Over/Under on how many times the gay hot tub pic posted in the thread. I'll leave that to the zoo bookie.

Tuco.

[jon593]

could always have a lawyer draft a contract and notarize it so it will be binding. im sure there is at least 1 lawyer on this site.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I'm in. I like the 50% split as well.

[thwang99]

Hi,

I could do this, everyone pays the $100 to me, I'd enter too. I'll "randomly" pick a winner. When I, oops, I mean, the winner, goes to the WSOP, we can all cheer him on. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

- Tony

P.S. I'd enter this too except I don't think I have a chance of winning the WSOP.

[IggyWH]

[ QUOTE ]
except I don't think I have a chance of winning the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not the point... the winner is the representative from The Zoo so it is your duty to act like an ass and make The Zoo proud.

[Spartacus]

Why make it so difficult? Assign all entries a number from 00 to 99. Preselect a state lottery drawing and use their first two digits. Of course it's your baby, but make it easy on yourself.

I would like to buy a spot as well.

[sfwusc]

I think benfords law would make it better to be a low number correct?

SWUSC

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
A phenomenological law also called the first digit law, first digit phenomenon, or leading digit phenomenon. Benford's law states that in listings, tables of statistics, etc., the digit 1 tends to occur with probability , much greater than the expected 11.1% (i.e., one digit out of 9). Benford's law can be observed, for instance, by examining tables of logarithms and noting that the first pages are much more worn and smudged than later pages (Newcomb 1881). While Benford's law unquestionably applies to many situations in the real world, a satisfactory explanation has been given only recently through the work of Hill (1996).

Benford's law applies to data that are not dimensionless, so the numerical values of the data depend on the units. If there exists a universal probability distribution P(x) over such numbers, then it must be invariant under a change of scale, so

(1)


If , then , and normalization implies . Differentiating with respect to k and setting k = 1 gives

(2)


having solution . Although this is not a proper probability distribution (since it diverges), both the laws of physics and human convention impose cutoffs. For example, if street addresses are distributed uniformly over the range of 1 to some maximum cutoff value, then they'll obey something close to Benford's law.



[/ QUOTE ]

Can some explain benfords law to a moron like me?

Tuco. &lt;----feeling like hes been set up

[sfwusc]

Yea i can

It is used in Auditing.

Ok. In natural according numbers say total of an invoice the law applies.

In say prices which have human input---doesnt apply.

Basicly on the first two digits.

11 is more common than 12 and 12 is more common than 13.


SWUSC

[NoChance]

[ QUOTE ]
Why make it so difficult? Assign all entries a number from 00 to 99. Preselect a state lottery drawing and use their first two digits. Of course it's your baby, but make it easy on yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this idea. Post the 100 2+2 names and the corresponding numbers prior to whatever lottery you choose and voila.

[Tuco]

I like it too. Only problem is the money handling part. Not sure if stars allows direct buy-ins this year.

Anyone know of a site that allows this?

Tuco.

[IggyWH]

Is there juice on the WSOP entry? I saw a chart that said 6% is withheld for tournament staff and the house but I couldn't tell if that's taken from the $10,000 or that's extra you have to pay.

[Mike Haven]

Dr. Theodore P. Hill asks his mathematics students at the Georgia Institute of Technology to go home and either flip a coin 200 times and record the results, or merely pretend to flip a coin and fake 200 results. The following day he runs his eye over the homework data, and to the students' amazement, he easily fingers nearly all those who faked their tosses.

"The truth is," he said in an interview, "most people don't know the real odds of such an exercise, so they can't fake data convincingly."

There is more to this than a classroom trick.

Dr. Hill is one of a growing number of statisticians, accountants and mathematicians who are convinced that an astonishing mathematical theorem known as Benford's Law is a powerful and relatively simple tool for pointing suspicion at frauds, embezzlers, tax evaders, sloppy accountants and even computer bugs.

The income tax agencies of several nations and several states, including California, are using detection software based on Benford's Law, as are a score of large companies and accounting businesses.

Benford's Law is named for the late Dr. Frank Benford, a physicist at the General Electric Company. In 1938 he noticed that pages of logarithms corresponding to numbers starting with the numeral 1 were much dirtier and more worn than other pages.

(A logarithm is an exponent. Any number can be expressed as the fractional exponent -- the logarithm -- of some base number, such as 10. Published tables permit users to look up logarithms corresponding to numbers, or numbers corresponding to logarithms.)

Logarithm tables (and the slide rules derived from them) are not much used for routine calculating anymore; electronic calculators and computers are simpler and faster. But logarithms remain important in many scientific and technical applications, and they were a key element in Dr. Benford's discovery.

Dr. Benford concluded that it was unlikely that physicists and engineers had some special preference for logarithms starting with 1. He therefore embarked on a mathematical analysis of 20,229 sets of numbers, including such wildly disparate categories as the areas of rivers, baseball statistics, numbers in magazine articles and the street addresses of the first 342 people listed in the book "American Men of Science." All these seemingly unrelated sets of numbers followed the same first-digit probability pattern as the worn pages of logarithm tables suggested. In all cases, the number 1 turned up as the first digit about 30 percent of the time, more often than any other.

Dr. Benford derived a formula to explain this. If absolute certainty is defined as 1 and absolute impossibility as 0, then the probability of any number "d" from 1 through 9 being the first digit is log to the base 10 of (1 + 1/d). This formula predicts the frequencies of numbers found in many categories of statistics.

Probability predictions are often surprising. In the case of the coin-tossing experiment, Dr. Hill wrote in the current issue of the magazine American Scientist, a "quite involved calculation" revealed a surprising probability. It showed, he said, that the overwhelming odds are that at some point in a series of 200 tosses, either heads or tails will come up six or more times in a row. Most fakers don't know this and avoid guessing long runs of heads or tails, which they mistakenly believe to be improbable. At just a glance, Dr. Hill can see whether or not a student's 200 coin-toss results contain a run of six heads or tails; if they don't, the student is branded a fake.

Even more astonishing are the effects of Benford's Law on number sequences. Intuitively, most people assume that in a string of numbers sampled randomly from some body of data, the first non-zero digit could be any number from 1 through 9. All nine numbers would be regarded as equally probable.

But, as Dr. Benford discovered, in a huge assortment of number sequences -- random samples from a day's stock quotations, a tournament's tennis scores, the numbers on the front page of The New York Times, the populations of towns, electricity bills in the Solomon Islands, the molecular weights of compounds, the half-lives of radioactive atoms and much more -- this is not so.

Given a string of at least four numbers sampled from one or more of these sets of data, the chance that the first digit will be 1 is not one in nine, as many people would imagine; according to Benford's Law, it is 30.1 percent, or nearly one in three. The chance that the first number in the string will be 2 is only 17.6 percent, and the probabilities that successive numbers will be the first digit decline smoothly up to 9, which has only a 4.6 percent chance.

A strange feature of these probabilities is that they are "scale invariant" and "base invariant." For example, it doesn't matter whether the numbers are based on the dollar prices of stocks or their prices in yen or marks, nor does it matter if the numbers are in terms of stocks per dollar; provided there are enough numbers in the sample, the first digit of the sequence is more likely to be 1 than any other.

The larger and more varied the sampling of numbers from different data sets, mathematicians have found, the more closely the distribution of numbers approaches what Benford's Law predicted.

One of the experts putting this discovery to practical use is Dr. Mark J. Nigrini, an accounting consultant affiliated with the University of Kansas who this month joins the faculty of Southern Methodist University in Dallas.

Dr. Nigrini gained recognition a few years ago by applying a system he devised based on Benford's Law to some fraud cases in Brooklyn. The idea underlying his system is that if the numbers in a set of data like a tax return more or less match the frequencies and ratios predicted by Benford's Law, the data are probably honest. But if a graph of such numbers is markedly different from the one predicted by Benford's Law, he said, "I think I'd call someone in for a detailed audit."

Some of the tests based on Benford's Law are so complex that they require a computer to carry out. Others are surprisingly simple; just finding too few ones and too many sixes in a sequence of data to be consistent with Benford's Law is sometimes enough to arouse suspicion of fraud.

Robert Burton, the chief financial investigator for the Brooklyn District Attorney, recalled in an interview that he had read an article by Dr. Nigrini that fascinated him.

"He had done his Ph.D. dissertation on the potential use of Benford's Law to detect tax evasion, and I got in touch with him in what turned out to be a mutually beneficial relationship," Mr. Burton said. "Our office had handled seven cases of admitted fraud, and we used them as a test of Dr. Nigrini's computer program. It correctly spotted all seven cases as involving probable fraud."

One of the earliest experiments Dr. Nigrini conducted with his Benford's Law program was an analysis of President Clinton's tax return. Dr. Nigrini found that it probably contained some rounded-off estimates rather than precise numbers, but he concluded that his test did not reveal any fraud.

The fit of number sets with Benford's Law is not infallible.

"You can't use it to improve your chances in a lottery," Dr. Nigrini said. "In a lottery someone simply pulls a series of balls out of a jar, or something like that. The balls are not really numbers; they are labeled with numbers, but they could just as easily be labeled with the names of animals. The numbers they represent are uniformly distributed, every number has an equal chance, and Benford's Law does not apply to uniform distributions."

Another problem Dr. Nigrini acknowledges is that some of his tests may turn up too many false positives. Various anomalies having nothing to do with fraud can appear for innocent reasons.

For example, the double digit 24 often turns up in analyses of corporate accounting, biasing the data, causing it to diverge from Benford's Law patterns and sometimes arousing suspicion wrongly, Dr. Nigrini said. "But the cause is not real fraud, just a little shaving. People who travel on business often have to submit receipts for any meal costing $25 or more, so they put in lots of claims for $24.90, just under the limit. That's why we see so many 24's."

Dr. Nigrini said he believes that conformity with Benford's Law will make it possible to validate procedures developed to fix the Year 2000 problem -- the expectation that many computer systems will go awry because of their inability to distinguish the year 2000 from the year 1900. A variant of his Benford's Law software already in use, he said, could spot any significant change in a company's accounting figures between 1999 and 2000, thereby detecting a computer problem that might otherwise go unnoticed.

"I foresee lots of uses for this stuff, but for me its just fascinating in itself," Dr. Nigrini said. "For me, Benford is a great hero. His law is not magic, but sometimes it seems like it."

****

Dow Illustrates Benfords's Law


To illustrate Benford's Law, Dr. Mark J. Nigrini offered this example:

"If we think of the Dow Jones stock average as 1,000, our first digit would be 1.

"To get to a Dow Jones average with a first digit of 2, the average must increase to 2,000, and getting from 1,000 to 2,000 is a 100 percent increase.

"Let's say that the Dow goes up at a rate of about 20 percent a year. That means that it would take five years to get from 1 to 2 as a first digit.

"But suppose we start with a first digit 5. It only requires a 20 percent increase to get from 5,000 to 6,000, and that is achieved in one year.

"When the Dow reaches 9,000, it takes only an 11 percent increase and just seven months to reach the 10,000 mark, which starts with the number 1. At that point you start over with the first digit a 1, once again. Once again, you must double the number -- 10,000 -- to 20,000 before reaching 2 as the first digit.

"As you can see, the number 1 predominates at every step of the progression, as it does in logarithmic sequences."

***

http://www.math.yorku.ca/Who/Faculty/Brettler/bc_98/benford.html

[GrannyMae]

here is what you do

let the software pick it.

have stars program it for a 1 pay. everyone registers and the entire thing from the high card gets the button at each table to the last 2 or 3 having all in battles are determined by da' machine.

we all sit on the rail and cheer for ourselves to last. the rest of the players at stars may thing it is the stupidest thing in the world while we watch ourselves get eliminated from the rail, but hey. we are the zoo.

this has as much randomness as pulling a number out of a hat.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Dr. Theodore P. Hill asks his mathematics students at the Georgia Institute of Technology to go home and either flip a coin 200 times and record the results, or merely pretend to flip a coin and fake 200 results.

[/ QUOTE ]


/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I know this guy!

[billyb]

i am in
a 50 % share i am not up for but I would consider 10% to everyone else.

peace
billyb

[TGoldman]

[ QUOTE ]
here is what you do

let the software pick it.

have stars program it for a 1 pay. everyone registers and the entire thing from the high card gets the button at each table to the last 2 or 3 having all in battles are determined by da' machine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting that PokerStars is rigged!!

[TruePoker CEO]

Part bump, part assurance that I have no interest in or bias about who eventually wins, we would simply hold a random drawing.

Truepoker CEO

[masonx]

its taken from the 10k

[Mike Haven]

See continuation thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2309537&amp;page=0&amp;view=expan ded&amp;sb=5&amp;o=2&amp;fpart=)

[TruePoker CEO]

Mike,

If you put thread links in each of two threads, each of which leads back to the other, have you enabled seamless travel through the space time continum, as described by Bill Preston, Esq. and Dr. Theodore "Ted" Logan ( See, "Don't forget to wind your watch" sequence in Bill &amp; Ted's Excellent Adventure.) .....

I predict Mike will respond that "only time will tell" at 6:33 pm.

[Mike Haven]

Only time will tell.

[AAmaz0n]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike,

If you put thread links in each of two threads, each of which leads back to the other, have you enabled seamless travel through the space time continum, as described by Bill Preston, Esq. and Dr. Theodore "Ted" Logan ( See, "Don't forget to wind your watch" sequence in Bill &amp; Ted's Excellent Adventure.) .....

I predict Mike will respond that "only time will tell" at 6:33 pm.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize, of course, that it was I who first started calling 96 offsuit the "Bill and Ted" hand, and I want appropriate credit for this.

[ QUOTE ]
[Bill and Ted meet themselves]
Ted: OK wait. If you guys are really us, what number are we thinking of?
Bill, Ted: 69, dudes.
Bill, Ted: Whoa.
[quadruple air guitar solo]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly, since I live in West Hollywood, my naming of this hand was totally misinterpreted by those unfamiliar with the film. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Shauna

[GrannyMae]

[ QUOTE ]

Only time will tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have just concluded that the poster with the avatar that looks like mason is not really mike haven from dublin, but david g. from CR.

so if mike h = MM, and mike h = david g, then who is that guy in vegas making all that money claiming to be co-author of all of david sklansky's books?

and what about those S&amp;M HH tourneys at true? who analyzed those hands? gary carson?

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/_950/crazy.gif

[dr_mabuse]

hi folks,

i am interested in any form of a zoo wsop raffle/tournament.

thanks and bye
dr_mabuse