Another 55 hand. this time utg party 15/30

[bicyclekick]

I've always folded 55 utg but I've decided to try throwing 5's and 6's into the mix at most 15/30 tables.

UTG+1 is tagish. button is 31/11/1.1 not good player


Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (6.33 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (8.33 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.33 BB

How'd I do?

[Nightwish]

OK, since I ragged on you in the other thread, it's only fair that I post something useful here.

I don't see the value in any of your moves in this hand. First of all, is the table loose passive enough so that limping with 55 UTG is worth it? I doubt it, especially since you mention playing 55 UTG at most 15/30 tables, and most Party 15/30 tables are definitely not loose passive. Second, you flop an underpair to everything and there's a K on the board, so why are you trying to check-raise a preflop raiser and a caller? The preflop raiser is obviously not folding any K or any pocket pair for that matter unless he raised with 44/33/22 or is weak tight. Here you got lucky and he either is weak tight or had something like AQ/AJ. OK, but you still have the button to worry about. After your flop raise, you're pretty much obligated to bet into him on the turn, not so much for value as because you want him to fold. But he doesn't. So what does he have? Probably not a K because a crappy player would have raised that K on the flop. He could have a 6 or a 7 or some sort of a draw. The only draws on the flop are straights and backdoor flushes. If he has 98, you're screwed. If he has a gutshot draw with T9, you're screwed. So when you call his river bet, you're essentially saying that 1 time out of 10 he'll have either a missed spade draw that he picked up on the turn or a missed bottom straight draw (54) or some random A high. My gut feel is that 9.33:1 is not enough for that.

Overall, this hand feels to me like you're trying too hard to win every single hand. Some hands just suck and position does matter.

[bicyclekick]

Thanks for being constructive.

Here are my thoughts (and i'm not saying I'm right...trying to take my game to the next level is leading to some non standardish plays that sometimes are going to be great and othertimes horrible at best. I can live with this. Gotta learn somehow. I wanna hear when I f*ck up.

A) there is a big enough chance i've got a better hand
B) he probably knows i dont limp with much...so what could I have...KQ, KJs, KTs, 77, 66 are very likley holdings...and the pot is protected by the retard so I think he's going to be folding 88-qq and definately AQ/AJ/ATs etc...

Now all i have to worry about the donk, and he doesn't likely have much. You're right nightwish, the 9 is a really shitty card for me.

I think once i make it to the river I have to call...the guy is too much of a goof for me to fold to.

[Justin A]

The only street I like is the turn.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are my thoughts (and i'm not saying I'm right...trying to take my game to the next level is leading to some non standardish plays that sometimes are going to be great and othertimes horrible at best. I can live with this. Gotta learn somehow. I wanna hear when I f*ck up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear you. Mid-small PP's in these spots are by far the toughest part of the game for me.

[Senor Choppy]

The 55 UTG experiment seems OK to me, although I think you're giving up EV for the hand itself (possibly making it back later though b/c of improved image, etc).

On the flop, once there's a bet and a call, the hand should be over for you. Sometimes there's really nothing you can do to manufacture a win.

Lastly, I think making moves b/c someone is TAG, and therefore should be able to put you on a small range of hands, and in this case, put you on something like a set, is a money losing play. You need a 16/8 type player, and also one that folds often enough to show that he's looking for excuses to make laydowns.

[Paluka]

I think this hand is played quite poorly. I cannot imagine why you don't give up on this flop. I just don't see it.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this hand is played quite poorly. I cannot imagine why you don't give up on this flop. I just don't see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I wasn't thinking clearly.

I'm so glad you guys don't let me get away with this kind of bullsh*t. It makes the positive things you guys say mean more and also teaches me lessons when I f*ck up like I did in this hand. Thanks much.

I got very lucky on this one as the button bet his A2s on the river and I took it down.

[Baulucky]

Thanks for posting this.

[mach3]

[ QUOTE ]
Overall, this hand feels to me like you're trying too hard to win every single hand. Some hands just suck and position does matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think your forays into the higher limit games are affecting play in the lower limit games? I often find this to be the case after I spend time on Stars 30/60 and come back to PP 15/30. The fancy stuff doesn't work nearly as often.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Overall, this hand feels to me like you're trying too hard to win every single hand. Some hands just suck and position does matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think your forays into the higher limit games are affecting play in the lower limit games? I often find this to be the case after I spend time on Stars 30/60 and come back to PP 15/30. The fancy stuff doesn't work nearly as often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably. I guess I'm getting used to playing hands vs james/schneider/stox/gonores/lakerman/jeffla/other random good players and have to remember that a lot of the 15/30 players aren't thinking like those guys.

Good call.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
I've always folded 55 utg but I've decided to try throwing 5's and 6's into the mix at most 15/30 tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you do a decent amount of limp-reraising at PP 15/30? I usually fold 55 and 66 EP if no openlimpers, but after re-reading Abdul's PF essay I'm wondering if it'd be profitable to add a few more limping hands up front to go along with limp-reraising the strong hands. Seems like it might work in some of the tighter or more aggressive games, but maybe it'd just be -EV overall. It's hard to say, since most of the better players in that game are multitabling, so a balanced strategy might not be as important as getting max EV on each hand, but does anyone have a lot of experience messing around with that stuff?

as far as this hands though, since the button isn't a good player, you're probbly not even going to get him to fold a 6 or 7 very often... so yeah, i'd say you got pretty lucky to get the button to put in that many bets with 3 outs, then bluff(or val bet i don't know) with his naked A on the end.

[peachy]

I usually fold that preflop...but u said u were giving it a try! Plus u know the players on that table. I definately would have folded prior to that river if i played the hand...but hey it worked out for ya!

But dont take mah thoughts into consideration
A. b/c im a tard
and
B. all i am focused on is snowboarding

[steveyz]

easy flop fold for me.

[ggbman]

It seems weird to tell a guy who is up 100k this year already that he played a hand badly, but generally bicyclekick, what makes the party 15-30 games great is people check-raising the flop with underpairs. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I think you know you should generally get away from this hand.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems weird to tell a guy who is up 100k this year already that he played a hand badly, but generally bicyclekick, what makes the party 15-30 games great is people check-raising the flop with underpairs. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I think you know you should generally get away from this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah, I still make tons of mistakes. I try not to make the same one more than a time or two, though. Getting reemed on here helps. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KidNotor]

hey bicycle kick if you dont mind answering what college in MN are you currently attending. Just a fellow MN college student wondering if your the kid that looks just like Phil Ivey from my Poli science class.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
hey bicycle kick if you dont mind answering what college in MN are you currently attending. Just a fellow MN college student wondering if your the kid that looks just like Phil Ivey from my Poli science class.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahahah. Because he plays poker, you are theorizing that he just might look like Phil Ivey?

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hey bicycle kick if you dont mind answering what college in MN are you currently attending. Just a fellow MN college student wondering if your the kid that looks just like Phil Ivey from my Poli science class.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahahah. Because he plays poker, you are theorizing that he just might look like Phil Ivey?

[/ QUOTE ]

my psychic powers says....he has red hair!!!

[mmcd]

I don't think this play is bad provided the PFR is tight enough to drop in-between pairs here. I doubt the degenerate cold-caller types usually have much of anything in this spot (but some might still raise you on the turn nonetheless, so this is obviously a concern), and if you can get heads-up with them with a pair on a ragged board, that's great. The only real concerns you have here are if the PFR has AK AA KK or KQ. Depending on how he plays, you could very well find out immediately if he has one of these (or intends to call down with QQ/JJ) at a cost of only 1 big bet postflop.