Classic Clarkmeister's Theorum?

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (1.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds.

River: (3.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Good? Bad? Ugly?

Krishan

[Danenania]

I'd bet the flop. River looks fine.

[bobbyi]

Why didn't you bet the flop?

[krishanleong]

I didn't bet the flop because I didn't raise preflop and I thought I could get an autobet from the last player. It didn't work so I bet the turn.

I don't think it's a bad time to slowplay as I have an unpaired hand drawing very slim. It also give opponents a chance to make second best hands.

Krishan

[PassiveCaller]

Was there a reason you thought he'd auto bet the flop?

[krishanleong]

Nope, this is against an unknown. I think an unknown at party bets this flop ~40% of the time.

Is not betting the flop here really that heinous? It's not like I had T2 on a T55 flop. There are no overcards to aces.

Krishan

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]

Is not betting the flop here really that heinous? It's not like I had T2 on a T55 flop. There are no overcards to aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its worse here than if it were HU.

[krishanleong]

I'm open to the idea that it's bad. How many outs do you give two limpers here collectively.

Krishan

[Michael Davis]

I don't think not betting the flop is bad at all. Look what happened on the turn, you got a call from a guy with a losing hand who didn't have the odds to call. Having this get checked through is far from tragic.

-Michael

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think not betting the flop is bad at all. Look what happened on the turn, you got a call from a guy with a losing hand who didn't have the odds to call. Having this get checked through is far from tragic.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

[btspider]

not a 6max topic, but this flop bet or not conversation reminds me of james's comments in hand 5 here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1649243&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1) .

check out GOT's comments on the hand (near the end of the topic)

heh, forgot it was your topic too, krish. good adjustment /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Michael Davis]

Also I would bet this flop 100% of the time without an ace except against select opponent I know to be paying attention. Even so, none of this stuff comes up that much in one session at one table for an opponent to get a good read on what you are doing, especially since you won't be making it to showdown with most of these hands.

-Michael

[Guido]

I think everybody has to think about why check-calling is better or worse than betting out.

The fact that there is a flush/straight draw makes me wanna bet. You also don't have a heart which makes me wanna bet even more. But what hands other than drawing hands are you gonna beat? Not many I think. Because you only have 2 opponents and one has already checked, I don't mind giving a free card that much.

The hand btspider suggested, our hero has a flush card. He also has a better kicker and won't be dominated that often. I don't like the flush draw, but because you have a flush card yourself, your kicker is a lot better and because there isn't a straight draw, I like check-calling in that hand a lot more. I'm not completely sure what GOT's reasons are why he prefers check-calling that much more than betting out.

Thanks,

Guido

[Michael Davis]

Well, if you are against a flush draw it will be bet for you. And this isn't really going to happen much. Check-calling induces your opponent to bluff, and as you pointed out there isn't much you can beat if you are getting called legitimately here, so why not give the opponent the opportunity to blow off chips?

-Michael

[Danenania]

I don't think there is much of a difference between betting and checking on this flop. The best plan is probably to mix it up a bit depending on specific reads of your opponents.

That said I'd like checking better if I were in the SB instead of the BB.

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind giving a free card that much.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like the check too.

Guido

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you are against a flush draw it will be bet for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
The sort of passive player who open-limps on the button is often also the kind who doesn't automatically bet his draws. Of course, he could be slowplaying a big pair or be an aggressive player who is mixing things up or whatever, but still my default assumption when someone open-limps on the button is that he is probably fairly loose and passive. As such, I do not expect that he will always bet with a draw or with a worse hand (maybe a pocket pair) or a total bluff, and I also do not assume that he is not calling my bet with things I want calling. For these reasons, I think this hand should be bet here.

[Michael Davis]

"As such, I do not expect that he will always bet with a draw or with a worse hand (maybe a pocket pair) or a total bluff, and I also do not assume that he is not calling my bet with things I want calling. For these reasons, I think this hand should be bet here."

I'm okay with this, but I think the conclusion is that you must check. We've got to give this guy a chance to pick up something, and that means a flush draw or pair on the turn, so that he pays us off.

-Michael

[Mr. Graff]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you are against a flush draw it will be bet for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Checking is defintely not a bad play here considering how slim they are drawing and the chance for them to either catch 2nd best hands or bluff at the pot on the turn.

[Turning Stone Pro]

Similar to a post by Bike yesterday, when he had 55 on the button in a 6handed game and there was an UTG limper. You are in the BB, you have a button limper and a SB caller. I would have to say that your hand, while nothing to write home about, is ahead 70% of the time here.

Why not raise preflop, get the SB out, and play heads up against the button? I like this play much better than calling and playing out of position after having shown weakness preflop (or at least not having shown strength).

Is this such a bad line?

TSP

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not raise preflop, get the SB out, and play heads up against the button? I like this play much better than calling and playing out of position after having shown weakness preflop (or at least not having shown strength).

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Guido

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
But what hands other than drawing hands are you gonna beat? Not many I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wont this chop pretty often with another ace in an unraised pot?

[Wynton]

I bet this flop the vast majority % of the time, unless I want to mix things up or go for a check/raise.

Bottom line for me is that you are probably ahead and you need to punish anyone for pursuing a flush draw.

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
Wont this chop pretty often with another ace in an unraised pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on what the other cards are after the flop right? But on the flop you are probably behind when he has a hand so you are the one who is drawing.

Thanks,

Guido

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line for me is that you are probably ahead and you need to punish anyone for pursuing a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop he will get the right odds to call so he won't make any mistake. When the flop gets checked through, he will make a mistake when he calls a turn bet.

In short, you can't punish somebody for pursuing a flush draw when he has (implied) odds to call. His call wouldn't be a mistake at all!

Thanks,

Guido

[krishanleong]

deleted

[Wynton]

Maybe it's not a mathematical mistake for him to call on his draw, but he's still being punished simply in the sense that it cost him more money.

If you think you've got one opponent on a flush draw, I see no reason to let him draw to that card for free.

[Wynton]

I should add that, if your opponent is on a flush draw, won't you make more money by betting the flop?

Some people will fold on the turn, if the haven't made their flush. And if he calls the turn bet too (when a blank falls), you're then still a favorite to win the hand.

[TMFS9]

My default read for someone limping on the button is a big loose passive, unless they are an aggressive player limping to mix things up, which isn't too common. A really loose passive player does not need much of a hand to call here. Many LP's will call here with something like J /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif just for the hell of it, why not charge them on the flop for drawing to a backdoor flush or whatever they are calling with because they will call, that's what they do.

[krishanleong]

This thread has turned into a slowplaying discussion. I for one am a fan of slowplaying in appropriate situation. This is one. I have very good equity in a tiny pot. I may lose the pot by slowplaying. (I did in face lose) But I firmly believe I stand to make more by allowing crappy hands to catch up than by betting out.

Lots of people don't like to slowplay. They frequently say stuff like, "Slowplaying is the new fastplay", which makes me want to puke in my mouth. If you don't like to slowplay that's fine. This hand is about as good as it gets for slowplaying.

Krishan

[Guido]

Maybe it's not a mathematical mistake for him to call on his draw, but he's still being punished simply in the sense that it cost him more money.

It will cost you more money too when you lose.

If you think you've got one opponent on a flush draw, I see no reason to let him draw to that card for free.

Betting is good when he's on a flush draw but you don't punish him when he has the odds to call. He doesn't make a mistake! You both get +EV.

I should add that, if your opponent is on a flush draw, won't you make more money by betting the flop?

This is true but you don't know if he's on a flush draw.

Some people will fold on the turn, if the haven't made their flush.

I don't think this is true.

And if he calls the turn bet too (when a blank falls), you're then still a favorite to win the hand.

True.

It seems to me that you don't understand that it's about letting others make mistakes and minimize your own. You don't punish someone when he has odds to call, not mathematical, BB wise or $ wise.

I think you should read this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=459928&amp;Fo rum=,,c2,,&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=2&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main=45930 1&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=&amp;daterange=1&amp;newe rval=2&amp;newertype=y&amp;) post if you haven't read it already.

Thanks,

Guido

[Wynton]

Look, I think I should not have used the term "punish" because it implies the opponent is making a mistake for calling on a flush draw.

On the other hand, presuming that the opponent is on a flush draw, I still think it's a mistake not to charge him to do so (at least that's what I think until I read the thread you just referenced).

Maybe I need to count the bets more methodically. But my gut reaction is that, imagining all the opponents' possible holdings (which are quite wide), I would make more $ more often by betting the flop.

And for the record, I really do run into people who will call a bet on the flop to pursue a flush draw, but fold on the turn, even if that makes no sense.

[krishanleong]

Wynton,

Do you ever slowplay? Have you ever said, "slowplaying is the new fastplaying"?

I think there are lots people who just don't. It's okay but you will never like this hand if you don't ever slowplay.

Opponents holdings are quite wide. Most of the time 70%+ he's just going to fold. If I check and he catches something, he'll call down thinking I don't have an ace.

Krishan

[Guido]

I still think it's a mistake not to charge him to do so

True

Imagining all the opponents' possible holdings (which are quite wide), I would make more $ more often by betting the flop.

I'm not so sure about that, I think both plays are fine. I just like checking a little more.

Thanks,

Guido

[Wynton]

Krishan,

Frankly, you have astutely inferred that I rarely slow-play. (Maybe this has something to do with the fact that for the past few months I've been playing six-max tables exclusively?)

My pattern has been to bet out on a wide range of hands from ep: top hands, draws, second pair (provided field is small). This way, I find I get action no matter what.

Though I've never said "slowplaying is the new fastplaying," I have gotten into a habit of never slowplaying recently (except with absolute monsters).

Perhaps this is a bad habit I should reconsider.

[krishanleong]

Wynton,

I just assumed you don't slowplay because this is about as good as it gets for a slowplay and you didn't like my flop check. There are tons of SSHE players who spout anti-slowplaying nonsense because they don't understand when to use it. It is a pet peeve of mine.

[ QUOTE ]
My pattern has been to bet out on a wide range of hands from ep: top hands, draws, second pair (provided field is small). This way, I find I get action no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do this too. I actually haven't played enough 6-max to know if slowplay oppotunities arise more or less frequently at 6-max. I do know that this was a good one.

If you want to feel like you aren't slowplaying enough try reading HEPFAP. It advocates considering slowplaying with a pair of jacks in LP.

Krishan

[Wynton]

I've read that, but might be time for a re-read.

Krishan, just out of curiosity, have you bookmarked any particularly good threads where you and others debate slow-playing? I'd be interested to check them out, if you have ready access. (If not, don't bother looking, I'll search myself.)

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that you don't understand that it's about letting others make mistakes and minimize your own. You don't punish someone when he has odds to call, not mathematical, BB wise or $ wise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you do. Silly example:

Pot of 5BB, your opponent has 1BB left with one card to come, is 4-1 against hitting, and exposes his cards so there is no way you'll pay off if you check this street through and he hits. Do you check or bet?

If you check it through, you win those 5BB four times in five for a 4BB equity.

If you bet, he must call, and you win 7BB 4/5 for 5.6BB equity at the cost of 1BB, so you make 0.6BB more by betting despite his having correct odds.

Guy.

[Guido]

I know this but it's all in the word punish I guess... Of course you have to bet when he has a draw but in this example you don't know that. I hope you understand what I'm saying... I wish I could explain this in Dutch /images/graemlins/tongue.gif... Well I can but I guess you still wouldn't understand me /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Nevermind, next hand please!

Thanks,

Guido