Pre-flop question

[MarkD]

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Assuming x is not ace or deuce, the hand is not a very strong starting hand. (But of course I like A345 and 2345 if at least single suited, and especially if double suited. I hate rainbow hands.

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I was just going through some older posts and read this quote by Buzz which got me thinking about pre-flop a bit. I haven't played O/8 a ton but feel as if I am least decent (and have been dabbling in 10/20 and 15/30 recently) and I don't understand this suited comment on the 2345 hand.

In O/8 how much extra equity does being suited with a hand like 2345 actually gain you?

I guess this boils down to how often you run up against another flush higher than yours, in general, in O/8. I know it is a lot more often than in holdem but does someone out there have some thoughts on this maybe.

I personally wouldn't put much emphasis on my hand being suited or double suited in the 2345 example. I know it adds to your equity, which is always good, but how much? Is it significant? Are we talking about a 1% equity increase (which is approaching significance IMO) or are we talking about 0.1% increase?

(In holdem a hand that is suited has about 3% more equity than it's unsuited counterpart. That is quite a bit of difference.)

[lostinthought]

Could this apply more to pot-limit 08b where your chances of pushing someone off with a weak flush are higher? (esp. in situations where you have the nut low locked?)

ex. someone with the nut low bets, you re-pot with nut low and weak flush, but a third person with a better flush (but not nut) has to fold, and you end up quartering with the original bettor

[Buzz]

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In O/8 how much extra equity does being suited with a hand like 2345 actually gain you?

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Hi Mark - Hard to say exactly how much you gain, because it's very opponent dependent.

Bill Boston did a series of simulations and published them in a book. The sims were for a tight ten player $5-$10 game. He ran 10000 sims for each hand using Wilson's Turbo Omaha-8 program. Boston shows simulated cash results for 2345-non-suited as <font color="red">-$5581</font>.
On the next line up, he shows cash results for 2345-suited as +$28065.

That's a difference of $33646 over 10000 trials.

What happens is you might hold
2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, the flop might be A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, and the board on the river might be A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif. You have the nut low, plus you have made a back-door baby heart flush. You're not going to beat anybody else who also has a heart flush, but you're going to beat anybody who doesn't. 2345s might scoop where 2345n might end up taking the low half of a pot while an ace high straight (or even trips or two pair) takes the high half.

You don't <font color="white">_</font>draw to a baby flush, if that's the only draw you have after the flop, but when you end up with a baby flush, sometimes it's a winner.

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I personally wouldn't put much emphasis on my hand being suited or double suited in the 2345 example.

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In my humble opinion, you're making a mistake.

The plain truth is crummy little baby flushes beat ace high straights - and they also beat trips and two pairs. That's just the way it is.

Yes, baby flushes lose to bigger flushes, but only <font color="white">_</font>when an opponent is still playing a hand that makes a bigger flush In real life, even when an opponent is dealt a hand that would have made a higher flush, that hand is often in the muck by the time you get to the river. Depends a lot on how many flush cards appear on the flop and if the board is paired or not. Also depends a lot on how your opponents play, how their cards fit with the board cards, the specific cards in the flush suit they hold, how you bet and how they are affected by the betting.

Lot of different variables, but if you have the nut low, you're in the hand <font color="white">_</font>anyway. Betting the hand anyway, because of holding the nut low, is significantly different from Texas hold 'em. Sometimes you can put a whole lot of pressure on a knowledgeable opponent who holds a crummy queen high flush when you hold the uncounterfeitable nuts for low.

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I know it adds to your equity, which is always good, but how much?

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Depends on the exact cards involved, the order in which they are delivered, and on how your opponents play.

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Is it significant?

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I think suitedness is significant. It certainly is significant in simulations.

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Are we talking about a 1% equity increase (which is approaching significance IMO) or are we talking about 0.1% increase?

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In Bostons's published simulations, for 10000 sims in a tight $5-$10 game,
2344-double-suited....+$58727.
2344-single-suited....+$29572.
2344-non-suited....+$3100.

That looks like more than 1% to me. Goes up almost ten fold from non-suited to suited, and then roughly doubles going from suited to double suited. Do you really want percentages?
O.K. 954% and 1894%.

Buzz

[MarkD]

Thanks Buzz. I didn't necessarily need percentages I was just looking for a feel as to how important suitedness was. I could see how it was important (backing into the flush, etc.) but didn't think it would smount to a lot in terms of earn.

It looks like it may be more important than in holdem. I guess this must be due to the fact that you are already putting yourself into a positive situation (likely drawing to the nut low) and backing into the flush is simply an additional gain.

I posted this mainly to increase my "feel" for O/8 hands and it appears that I have done that. Thank you. I am beginning to really like O/8, but if I'm going to play it I don't want to suck.

Do you feel as if those simulations are an accurate representation real money play and do you think the results of the simulations will correlate to real money results?

[BradleyT]

If you are heads up or 3 handed and the board is A/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif and you have 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif how much are you going to be betting?

Change that to 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif and does your answer change?

[bigredlemon]

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If you are heads up or 3 handed and the board is
A/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

and you have 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif how much are you going to be betting?

Change that to 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif and does your answer change?

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[Buzz]

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Do you feel as if those simulations are an accurate representation real money play and do you think the results of the simulations will correlate to real money results?

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Hi Mark - No. I don't think simulations are an accurate representation of real money play and I don't think the results correlate to real money results. But (among other things) they do give you some idea of the relative value of starting hands.

I just looked in a newer edition of Boston's book and the cash results are different than in my copy for both of the hand groups I cited (2344 and 2345).

2344d ..... $56784
2344s ..... $28231
2344n ..... $7815
2345d ..... $58849
2345s ..... $22634
2345n ..... no different .... <font color="red">-$5581</font>

Looks like Mr. Boston re-ran five of the six hands for the later edition and got slightly different results. I wonder why he didn't re-run 2345n. Maybe he did and coincidentally got exactly the same result. Whatever. The exact values are not that important to me anyway.

It's like flipping a coin 10000 times. You figure the coin will end up heads about - but not exactly - half the time. Each 10000 times you flip the coin, there should be a bit different result. (Maybe it will be 4943 heads and 5057 tails one time and 5111 heads and 4889 tails the next - something like that).

A chief problem with the sims in Mr. Boston's book (aside from the fact there are 16432 distinctly different Omaha or Omaha-8 hands rather than 5232), is that the line-up Mr. Boston has chosen doesn't match the line-up of opponents I regularly face. A second problem is that I play in a nine handed game rather than a ten handed game. A third problem with any sims is that the line-up of opponents I face in a casino changes from one hour to the next as players come and go.

(Please note that I'm not knocking Mr. Boston's book. I like the book in spite of its various flaws - and I appreciate Mr. Boston's efforts in writing the book. I've spent hours poring over data presented in the book. My own frayed copy is high-lighted and marked in several different colors, with some my own thoughts and calculations penciled throughout).

In a typical ring game in which I play, I'll generally want to see the flop with all the hands in the 2344 and 2345 series, even the non-suited one shown with the negative expectation. I think all the hands in both of these series might usually have a positive expectation if I could exactly simulate my own, generally looser, opponents.

I still remember the time a couple of years ago I was playing
K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, and the flop was 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. The turn and river were Q/images/graemlins/club.gif and J/images/graemlins/club.gif. I had 16 outs on the flop, then I made a queen high straight for the nuts on the turn, and finally I improved to an ace high straight on the river.

Meanwhile, an opponent who was primarily drawing for low with an aceless hand after the flop happened to have two small clubs.

It's not really an isolated incident. Happens more than you might think. When you have a rainbow hand, if the board starts out rainbow, say /images/graemlins/spade.gif, /images/graemlins/club.gif, /images/graemlins/heart.gif, the board will end up flushed one time out of six. No guarantees you'll run into an opponent who still is playing a hand that would have made a flush. (It's not worth drawing to a back-door flush, even an ace high back-door flush, if that's your only draw).

When the board starts out rainbow, and you have two cards in one of the suits on the board, you will end up making a flush about 4.5% of the time. Thus a back-door nut-flush draw is only worth roughly the equivalent of approximately one out to you - by itself not enough of a reason to stay in the hand after the flop. (But combined with other outs, maybe just enough to have favorable odds to play).

Anyhow, just because I hate rainbow hands doesn't necessarily mean I won't occasionally play one.

But in loose ring games I'll play a lot of borderline hands, hands I wouldn't advise a beginner to play. Maybe I shouldn't play them myself, but keep in mind that I don't play the game to make money. Omaha-8 is my hobby. It's more fun for me to play hands than to fold them before the flop. But I try not to be stupid about it. I do at least have enough sense to fold non-suited borderline hands before the flop. (Don't misunderstand; although it's just a hobby, I'm serious about winning rather than throwing my money away).

I don't generally make non-nut flush draws, per se, but since I tend to play suited hands more than rainbows, I'll often end up winning a pot with a non-nut flush. And when I also have the low and back into the flush, sometimes those pots are huge.

I occasionally read posts, articles, or books that state or imply you need the nuts to win in Omaha-8. That's simply (and obviously, if you've ever sat in a game) not true.

Buzz

[chaos]

I like to think of it this way:
In a ten handed game, if you have 2 of a suit in your hand and there are three of that suit on board you have made your flush and most of the time there will be another player who has made a flush. If everyone played every hand to the river, at least one other player would also have a flush about 7 out of 8 hands. Since your flush is tiny you would lose to a bigger flush.

But you do not get involved in the pot with 2345 when all you have is a flush draw. You get involved with the nut low. And then a small percentage of the time your flush will win you high and you will scoop. Since scooping is so much more profitable than getting half, this small scoop potential adds definite value to the hand.