OM PL HL question Please

Internet OM hi-low pot limit:

I limp up front with AAQ9, Q9clubs.

4 pre flop callers. Flop is ...5 8 10. Flop is checked.

Turn...Ace of clubs giving me top set and back door club draw (also making low). There is a $10 bet into me, I raise it to $20 with the only player behind me, HE reraises it all in @ $60. The first better calls, I call. Wheel card (no club) on the river, I lose to both of them (both went all in on the turn).

Should I have laid this hand down to ANY bet or raise?

And PLEASE, after getting 1/4ed to death, what is a 1.A legitimate pre- flop raise in this game (since it's rare to get AA23, 4, 5) ?? and 2. With WHAT hand on flop, turn SHOULD big bet go in (since it's difficult to have the nut high that often)

Thanks for any help, advice.

[Ray Zee]

your turn raise was terrible. all you did was give the low hand a freeroll on a bigger pot. and it got there. now you know the punishment for raising into the nuts.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

You're in a tough spot. There are only 2 nut cards in the deck for you, the Kc and the last A. There are 9 other cards that pair the board and give you aces full, which is the best hand almost all the time. Every other card in the deck makes a straight. While the J makes you a Q high straight, it could make someone else Broadway. So, not only are you fighting for half the pot, there are almost no safe cards on the river unless you fill or make quads. Of course, only two opponents can't have every single draw tied up, but you could easily be losing the high half of this pot over half the time. If you lose high even 1/3 of the time, you'll just barely make a profit here.

So, folding can't be much of a mistake if it is one. I suspect calling can't be too wrong either. The real question might be how much money the 3rd player has left to bet into you, or to call your bet, on the river.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Agreed. Should I have not gotten involved with this hand ON THE TURN AT ALL?
My thinking (since I continue to get 1/4ed)was to 1/4 the other 2 players, OR backdoor the club flush. Also, it was possible that it was a set over set situation.

If you would be kind enough to address part 2 of the post re: raing, I would REALLY appreciate it. I continue to get 1/4ed in this game..doing something wrong, obviously.

Thank you sincerely

Thanks Greg. As it turns out, NEITHER player had a low wrap, altho this I guess is irrelevant. The player that came over the top had @ $80 and needed the "5" or they both get 1/4ed, they had no other redraws.

Please address my questions about "raising" in this game, I'm getting quartered to death.

Thank you

[Ray Zee]

if you are getting 1/4 too often then it means you are playing in too many three handed pots mostly. or, and-- you dont play with your cards connected properly and arent having the redraws needed for this game. also i suspect you put in way too much action with only one side locked up when you are vunerable to getting into scoop trouble. also again when getting quartered alot, means you arent reading hands as well as you should, so you can bet properly and keep those hands multiway and still survive the split.

[Mark W]

I don't play O8; therefore, my question is: Was the hand worth playing at all?

Comments

[twistedbeats]

i raise with A2(wheelcard)x. well, i also raise with a3(wheelcard)x. i like raising with 234x. if i was gonna play AAxx, i'd raise with it, but in early position, i'd toss it. also, i tend to pump a2kk a3qq and the like.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I tend to do most of my raising in this game when I'm near the button, and wish to make the player(s) behind me fold preflop and thereby give me last action for the rest of the hand. That is worth a lot. I also raise in order to build a pot with a hand that has good scoop potential (A2xy with a suited A, A2xx where x is a pair and the A is suited). These latter raises are not full raises, but more like making it $6 instead of $2 to go after a few limpers. Finally, if I have a decent hand (but not as good as those above) in late position and it has been folded to me, I might raise to steal the blinds. Of course I would also raise to steal with the hands that are better than this, but I might have only KKQJ or As4s68 or some such relative clunker.

Don't worry too much about raising. Just make sure you don't always have one of a very few hands before you raise (so that the better opponents don't know exactly where you're at when you raise). Either come up with your own selection that makes up about 10% of the hands and raise with those, or don't raise at all.

The more important issue is figuring out what they have when they raise.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Matt Flynn]

I prefer to fold too. It may be a little wimpy, but your aces are mostly dry and hard to play up front. Part of the problem is when you hit the set most of the time there's a low or low draw to contend with in addition to draws for high. Painful to have to check that turn after you hit the ace on the flop. If your opponents are passive you can get away with a lot more though.

Disclaimer : I am new to this game and don't know anything.

I agree that I need a little something with aces to play them, but not much.

I'd like to counter the statement

"Part of the problem is when you hit the set most of the time there's a low or low draw to contend with in addition to draws for high"

In many cases, if I flop a set of aces I want the board to pair. In this case, I don't mind getting action from the low draws, since if the board pairs it won't help them anyhow. Then again, the game I play in has a 2-hourly high-hand jackpot, but only if the entire board is dealt. Aces-full usually has a shot at it, so there is a little extra ev from the hand, and a little more encouragement to play it passively.

Huh?

[Lurker]

>In many cases, if I flop a set of aces I want the board to >pair. In this case, I don't mind getting action from the >low draws, since if the board pairs it won't help them >anyhow.

If they have a low and the board pairs, they still have a low...if the board pairs, they can still draw for a low on the river but it's true you do have a monster hi at that point.

Pairing the board is a bad deal when someone is drawing to a low. In other words, if there is only a partial low on the board, when it does pair, it is a huge swing in the Flopped Set of Aces' favor. Not only did you fill up, but another non-low card hit.

[Ray Zee]

sure thats wonderful when it happens but it happens rarely. so you spend too much trying to hit this monster that many times you split anyway with someone, and lots of times when you do hit the trips and the board doesnt pair you get outdrawn and pay the piper.

I want to thank everyone for contributing to my post, really appreciate it.

Ray...I understand @ the freeroll concept, in this case, yes, the 2 lows were made. With top set, I also had a backdoor #2 flush draw, a gut straight draw. Part of my (incorrect?) thinking was that IT MAY BE A SET OVER SET SITUATION (real tired of getting 1/4ed in that PL game).

You and I used to play PL in both Reno and Lake Tahoe, was wondering if you remember those days (Clone etc). We played head up PL hold-em $25-50, was a lot of fun. Good old days /forums/images/icons/wink.gif...games were often very good, remember?

If you Ray could comment on "what a raising-big bet hand" esp. pre-flop may look like in PL Om Hi-Lo (Internet) I would really appreciate it (other than AA2wheel card suited). Dble suited aces seem to win very few pots ESP in PL OM High!. A big raise in both OM Hi & Hi-Lo with 3+ callers seems like nearly a ->pure gamble. Would like your opinion (badly). I have your books and think they are terriffic.

Many thanks, Jim.

[Ray Zee]

Jim, in holdem many of your raises are for value because of your good hand. in omaha games your raises arent very often for value of your hand as the value of hands run close and can change drastically, depending on composition of opponents cards. so you raise more to get position, knock out players, or to get the action checked to you, etc. so your raises will be from the back mostly and less thought on hand strength than on your attack plan. hands that go to a showdown are more often won by the hand that happens to improve the most. so partly to answer your question is that hands with the most improvement chances seem to do better in showdowns, except for headup pot where the strong starting hands eck out the money slowly.

i loved poker back in those days as it was fun and games. i still dont know who your are but i am sure we had good times together playing the big games. any good stories you remember.

[Bozeman]

So do you always limp UTG if you have a playable hand? Or Do you make pot-building raises?

Craig

Thanks Ray. There were many wonderful stories. A couple come to mind...

You, I and Stu Spears were playing $25-50 pot limit holdem..the locals, Mis. Dave, Glen, Joe B., Ritchie, Big Bruce, etc would come and go as well as a few hi players from out of town..game went for a week at Cesaers, Lake Tahoe. You were in the blind with J7, Stu was on the button with with AJ..the straddle was on it and Stu bet the pot, pre flop raise, you called. Flop was JJ7! You bet it out small, and Stu came over the top..YOU reraised the pot and LITERALLY talked Stu in to calling! You gave him a number of reasons why he MUST call. It took you @ 15 minutes, but you convinced him he MUST call! You won a nice pot and @ $35,000 for the week.

Finally you and I were playing head up, pot limit holdem, $25-50 blind. I got lucky for a while and was ahead @ $5,000. THEN I pick up the 331 to 1 hand, AK spades on the button with the straddle on it, pot it, you call, flop is A 7 K!, I pot it, you call! I turn a backdoor flush draw and again, pot it. You come over the top with a raise of $4 or 5 thousand! I gave it a LOT of thought, and made the Tough laydown. You were a gentleman and and showed me the set of 7's.

At the time I loved playing head up, but you would not play omaha hilow head up...I know you were excellent at all games, no question but would not play that game (as in my post, am having a hard time with the Internet hilo pot limit RING games..not short handed). I have always wondered why you wouldnt play that nite? I KNOW I was a dog, just wanted to have some fun.

What ever happened to Clone? He never to seem the same after that horrible no limit beat (he flopped 10's full of nines and the guy with quad 9's had JUST went to the cage to get @ $50,000 prior to the hand..I think it all went into that hand) Wondered about that one also.

You one of the Very best, here's to memories, Jim.

[Ray Zee]

thanks jim, well maybe back then i didnt feel so good playing hi low headup but i guess is that i usually didnt play anyone's own pick of a game. maybe after playing you pot limit holdem i didnt want any more of you. you know some people are just too tough.
clone never recovered and i just heard he is in the same situation recently. too bad. he is a friend that i havent seen in years now. we made alot playing the slots years ago before anyone else knew how good they were at the time.
that hand he lost stunk real bad i have to say. they even got me for 200 bucks in that cooler before i got out. but he set himself up for that one and he knows it.

Ray, yes, I was in the game (1099..) but not in the hand. Wondered for years if the cooler was in. Unless I'm mistaken you had pocket jacks. Clone took a bad pounding that -week-, felt so sorry for him. I used to love to play in the reno pot limit games with you two. GREAT conversation, it was worth the price, win or lose.
We always used to have these GREAT games at Cesears on the President's 3 day weekend. Once, the local lineup was there, Yosh, Jerry Ikeda, Dave, Glen, Paul, Joe B. etc. Jerry lost $10,000 in the first 15 minutes (God bless him, he was a friend) and over the weekend ALL the the locals (or nearly) went broke to Non playing poker high rollers that came into the pot limit game from the pit and got incredably lucky. We were shell shocked. Huge pots for Lake Tahoe (or anywhere) and couldn't beat them.

I guess 'Cowboy Tom' is also still playing..ever play with him Ray? Great pot limit action from him for years now. Tom's not happy unless the pot's not @ least $10,000.

I hope your fine Ray, I REALLY miss the good ole days, guess most folks do. I reread your great Hi Low book, it's one of the best ever written IMO. Thanks for everything, including the memories, they were priceless.

Jim

Finally Ray, have wondered for years what ever happened to Tom Hood? A real fine player IMO. Maybe he quit, it's unlikely he went broke..he, like you was gifted.

J.

[Ray Zee]

tom lives in santa cruz cal. and has played fairly regularly in cal. and some in nevada. he has done quite well for himself. and i still consider him one of the best holdem players in the world.

I tend to be on the 3/4 side, so might be worth listening to.

If you take a weak A2 into a pot, expect to be quartered.
It's not very difficult to understand what happens, when you've seen it a few times.

People think its only $5 to play and they might flop good, so call. But they don't have in mind what flopping good means.

Well, flopping good with a hand that has low potential means hitting a specific flop where your hand can quarter another guy who is going to be prepared to put money in the pot.

A456 for example is ok - it receives good implied odds from an opponent with A4 when a 23 hit the board. If the ace is suited that is better still.

If you have specific flops in mind where you will be quartering others for significant money relative to what is going in pre-flop, by all means take your hand into a multi-way pot. Don't play a weak A2!

If you have a real hand like A234 unsuited or AA2x, you must raise to get it short handed, so that you can win the high end with a feeble holding.

Handle your low hands religiously like this.
Occasionally limp with AA for deception, but generally raise with it to get short handed against another ace.

Limp or raise at random for deception with high hands, like KQJ9. Avoid middle cards.