View Full Version : A semi-CDC inspired button play
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 01:30 PM
OK, so it was only sort of inspired by CDC's apparent love for the button. The cold-call isn't a normal play for me here, but I did think at the time, "well, I'm on the button", thought of CDC's recent posts, and decided I'd make this profitable through my extremely mediocre post-flop skills.
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.
Flop: (13 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds.
Raising seemed like chip spewing, but I thought about it.
Turn: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero ??
What's your line on the turn here? MP2 hadn't done anything out of line, so I had no reason to think that I was ahead at the moment.
The only thing I don't like about the PF is the fact that you're probably going to be first to act for the rest of the hand.
You have to at least call the turn. You might even consider raising in order to know out UTG and prepare for a cheap showdown...however, this could get dangerous if MP2 is very aggressive..although a 3 bet isn't that bad with about 14 outs....the more I think about it, the more I like the raise.
flair1239
03-23-2005, 01:40 PM
I don't think that raising the flop would be chip spewing. I think raising for a free turn card is a good idea here. Depending how youare counting outs these days you have about 6-8. Assuming you do not get three bet and get a few cold calls, the raise could have value as well, combined the possibility of being ahead I think it is worth it. You cold called pf becuase you had position and a hand that plays well multi-way, I think you should use your position and try to get a free card.
I just call the turn.
27offsooot
03-23-2005, 01:42 PM
The problem with cold-calling is that you're not really the button. Most 2/4 players defer to the raiser on the flop and then you're first to act after him. Not saying it's wrong, but with a hand like 87s, i think it's very important not to be acting right after a PF raiser. With a hand like 66-88, i love being first to act after the raiser.
I would call the turn bet and make a crying call on the river HU. If it's still three-handed, i think pretty hard about folding the river.
PotatoStew
03-23-2005, 01:43 PM
If the table is generally passive, I guess the PF cold call is ok. I'd probably fold it though. I think you should raise the flop -- no one seems too thrilled with their hands, MP2 could easily have missed the flop. Raising may drive folks out, clean up your outs and slow MP2 down some. I think I'd just call the turn.
somapopper
03-23-2005, 01:44 PM
I'd rather raise the flop if I'm sticking around, then take my free card on the turn if it is so mercifully given. If it was a lower spade I'd go ahead and raise it up here (given your turn play), but there's a decent chance that card helped him as the preflop raiser so I'm just calling.
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 01:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with cold-calling is that you're not really the button. Most 2/4 players defer to the raiser on the flop and then you're first to act after him. Not saying it's wrong, but with a hand like 87s, i think it's very important not to be acting right after a PF raiser. With a hand like 66-88, i love being first to act after the raiser.
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OK, that's two of you now who have mentioned this. You really think it's that prevalent of a standard assumption? I think there are plenty of 2/4 tables where the blinds will put out a bet on a flop like that one, where there plenty of possible draws.
Not saying this makes the PF correct, but I certainly didn't think at the time "hmmm, I'll be first to act after the raiser, maybe I shouldn't call". Maybe I should be thinking about that.
chief444
03-23-2005, 01:53 PM
I think this is very important. I cold call this every time against an EP raise with 2-3 cold calls in between. But suited connectors kind of suck with this relative position. I'm not even saying the pf call is really bad. It's probably fine. It's just a lot better if you're in position to extract more postflop in such a multiway pot.
somapopper
03-23-2005, 01:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with cold-calling is that you're not really the button. Most 2/4 players defer to the raiser on the flop and then you're first to act after him. Not saying it's wrong, but with a hand like 87s, i think it's very important not to be acting right after a PF raiser. With a hand like 66-88, i love being first to act after the raiser.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, that's two of you now who have mentioned this. You really think it's that prevalent of a standard assumption? I think there are plenty of 2/4 tables where the blinds will put out a bet on a flop like that one, where there plenty of possible draws.
Not saying this makes the PF correct, but I certainly didn't think at the time "hmmm, I'll be first to act after the raiser, maybe I shouldn't call". Maybe I should be thinking about that.
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I think most folks are betting a J if they have one on this flop. If they're limping with garbage then not even betting when their garbage makes top pair at this table, could someone save me a seat?
chief444
03-23-2005, 01:56 PM
I'd just call the flop and turn. I doubt if MP2 is betting unimproved overcards into 5 opponents and then firing again on the turn.
pokerstudAA
03-23-2005, 02:03 PM
Preflop: I dont like coldcalling with this - even with the button - but I really have any idea. With 4 limpers I would raise this - so why not call a raise if everyone is coming along anyway? I think you are going to get bet into on the flop - regardless and must hit it hard to continue. I fold this preflop (I think).
Flop: Raising here sucks. You dont want to sqeeuze out anyone that will pay off your straight. You dont want to get head up with a drawing hand against MP@ who has shown aggression preflop and on the flop. You are probably not going to get a free card with this raise either (and it is not free when it costs you 2 SB's to raise here) Getting 3-bet here would also suck - byebye free card. No flush draw on the board.
Your hand is not best now and you want good odds on the flop call by bringing everyone along. I cannot see why raising the flop here is good for any reasons.
Turn: Must call.
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flop like that one
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You don't know what the flop will be when you cold-call...
Again, as the chief said, this PF call isn't bad...just sucks that you're in this position.
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 02:10 PM
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Flop: Raising here sucks. You dont want to sqeeuze out anyone that will pay off your straight.
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What straight are you thinking of here? Runner-runner hands certainly aren't something I think of before considering my more standard 2-pair/trips outs.
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You dont want to get head up with a drawing hand against MP@ who has shown aggression preflop and on the flop. Getting 3-bet here would also suck.
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Yeah, I wasn't sure about the flop raise idea, because everyone assumes I'm going to get a free card if I do so, but that only happens if he actually missed the flop or has unimproved overcards, or TT-99 perhaps. Getting 3-bet, then being led into on the turn again, would not be fun. I think it's close though.
MercTec
03-23-2005, 02:12 PM
Commenting on the flop play...i think a raise makes more sense here.
You have middle pair with backdoor straight and flush possibilities. If it was an EP bet and a few callers then I think just calling is fine.
However, the pot is pretty big and you are given the opportunity here to face the field with calling 2 bets cold. Hopefully you can clear out some gut shots or maybe even a weak J. Also, the PFR may have something like AK or AQ at this point and is betting to try and thin the field so there is a slim chance you have the best hand.
I raise and take the free card.
DMBFan23
03-23-2005, 02:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
OK, so it was only sort of inspired by CDC's apparent love for the button. The cold-call isn't a normal play for me here, but I did think at the time, "well, I'm on the button", thought of CDC's recent posts, and decided I'd make this profitable through my extremely mediocre post-flop skills.
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.
Flop: (13 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds.
Raising seemed like chip spewing, but I thought about it.
Turn: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero ??
What's your line on the turn here? MP2 hadn't done anything out of line, so I had no reason to think that I was ahead at the moment.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think there are plenty of merits to a flop raise? I'm raising the flop to get rid of TONS of hands. T9, a better 7, lots of overcards, any other gutshots, a 6 plus backdoor draws, etc. lots of hands can call profitable in this pot getting 14:1. the lack of a flush draw makes me more inclined to raise, since flush draws will not get fancy and 3 bet.
I really don't think MP2 needs a pair to bet here after everyone checks to him, and even if he does there are 5 other people to protect this hand from. if someone else behind us check 3 bets then we'll play poker.
lmbree
03-23-2005, 02:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think there are plenty of merits to a flop raise? I'm raising the flop to get rid of TONS of hands. T9, a better 7, lots of overcards, any other gutshots, a 6 plus, backdoor draws, etc. lots of hands can call profitable in this pot getting 14:1. the lack of a flush draw makes me more inclined to raise, since flush draws will not get fancy and 3 bet.
I really don't think MP2 needs a pair to bet here after everyone checks to him, and even if he does there are 5 other people to protect this hand from. if someone else behind us check 3 bets then we'll play poker.
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Raising this flop is 100% necessary. You have great relative position given the board, use it.
pokerstudAA
03-23-2005, 02:15 PM
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What straight are you thinking of here?
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Sorry, My bad much too quick on the keyboard today - thought you hit 4 to a straight 6789. The pair might change my plan though. You could call the flop still and fold the turn UI. With the flush draw 9 outs and 5 outs to 2 pair or trips the turn is an easy call.
With a pair (not the straight draw)- the raise might be closer. You could isolate the PFR with AK or AQ and knock out lone overcards from the limpers. You could raise the flop - check the turn - fold the river UI.
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 02:15 PM
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flop like that one
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You don't know what the flop will be when you cold-call...
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No, I don't argue that. I just think when there are likely to be 4 players acting before the PF raiser on the flop, I'm not going to instantly assume that it's going to be checked to the raiser every time.
I'm not arguing that the PF cold-call wasn't donkish either, it was intentionally donkish, if anything. I don't play that many hands per week, honestly, so I'm not that concerned with fractional +/-EV considerations. Once in a while I like to just play a hand to see what happens.
And I think this cold-call would actually be very +EV in certain live situations that I've been in.
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...everyone assumes I'm going to get a free card
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If you are implying that you would not bet the turn after raising the flop, please explain what you are thinking.
MercTec
03-23-2005, 02:21 PM
I think a turn bet is warranted if you get it heads up or even 3 handed. But what if you get 2 or 3 cold callers and its checked to you?
I'd bet 3 ways, check if it's 4+. I have no great rationalization for that, but it feels right.
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 02:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
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...everyone assumes I'm going to get a free card
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If you are implying that you would not bet the turn after raising the flop, please explain what you are thinking.
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I'm not saying that I wouldn't, I was just trying to say that I thought it was interesting a lot of people seemed to imply they assumed that a raise would automatically get a free card on the turn.
In hindsight I think that raising the flop would have been the correct play, for many of the reasons that people stated.
If I didn't get 3-bet, and a non-A, non-K came on the turn, I'd bet if checked to for sure. I may even bet if a A or K comes, but if they did I'd be more tempted to just take the free card.
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 02:25 PM
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I'd bet 3 ways, check if it's 4+. I have no great rationalization for that, but it feels right.
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The way the hand played out, would you raise the turn or just call?
emil3000
03-23-2005, 02:25 PM
I think you should raise the turn, and show it down unimproved. Kinda depends on your opponent, but getting threebet here isn't horrible. You might have the best hand, and a raise should clear out some of UTGs hands that beat you, like 88-TT (course often these are raised preflop). MP needs a very good hand to raise it again, and in that case you probably only lose one bet, cause you can fold the river .
I'd just call. Getting 3 bet really, really sucks since you have to call now.
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getting threebet here isn't horrible.
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I think it's pretty damn bad. If you hadn't picked up a spade draw and you could fold to the 3 bet it would have a lot more metrit, but I'm not particularly excited about putting in 3 bets on a big street w/o the best hand when its likely heads up.
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a raise should clear out some of UTGs hands that beat you, like 88-TT
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I think these hands are unlikely to fold given that they called the flop. Also, with 2 broadways on the board it's time to start worrying abour the preflop aggressor.
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MP needs a very good hand to raise it again, and in that case you probably only lose one bet, cause you can fold the river .
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Being able to fold the river unimproved does not advocate putting in 3 bets on the turn in a 2/3 way pot.
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I don't play that many hands per week, honestly, so I'm not that concerned with fractional +/-EV considerations.
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What?
Look at your poker playing as one huge lifelong game.
If you're just playing to play, then fine. Don't worry about +-EV decisions...go ahead and take a gamble.
chief444
03-23-2005, 02:32 PM
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If I didn't get 3-bet, and a non-A, non-K came on the turn, I'd bet if checked to for sure. I may even bet if a A or K comes, but if they did I'd be more tempted to just take the free card.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd probably bet if it didn't give me a flush draw but check if it did.
I agree after reading through the responses that a flop raise may be better, especially if there's a chance a pair of 7's is good here. If the preflop raiser were a decent, aggressive opponent though I would just call.
MercTec
03-23-2005, 02:32 PM
I don't see what raising would accomplish on the turn. You don't have enough pot equity to justify it and it costs the same as calling the turn and river so you're not really getting a free showdown.
Calling is pretty clear here me thinks.
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 02:34 PM
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getting threebet here isn't horrible.
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I think it's pretty damn bad. If you hadn't picked up a spade draw and you could fold to the 3 bet it would have a lot more metrit, but I'm not particularly excited about putting in 3 bets on a big street w/o the best hand when its likely heads up.
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I agree with Evan here. The flop is where I should have found out if the PF raiser liked his hand or not. I don't think a turn raise accomplishes a free showdown that I win often enough to justify it, and it may even cause the raiser to not call a river bet if I do hit the flush.
Frequitude
03-23-2005, 02:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The way the hand played out, would you raise the turn or just call?
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I'd raise the turn. If you are ahead, great. But if the Villain has a big pocket pair, your 14 outs are pretty clean. You can only really fear an 8 or the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif making UTG a straight...all the more reason to face him with two bets.
With 30% equity in a 9BB pot, is being 3-bet really that bad?
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 02:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't play that many hands per week, honestly, so I'm not that concerned with fractional +/-EV considerations.
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What?
Look at your poker playing as one huge lifelong game.
If you're just playing to play, then fine. Don't worry about +-EV decisions...go ahead and take a gamble.
[/ QUOTE ]
gamboooooool! Yeah, I was waiting for this comment, I deserve it.
Sometimes you have a couple of beers with dinner though, and have read one too many Commerce/Vegas trip reports, and decide calling would be fun.
I'm usually pretty ABC TAG I think, and if I make one loose call like this every couple of weeks, I'm not going to lose sleep over it, long term be damned.
I'm really trying to work on my post flop game, which I think is weak, and this kind of hand is exactly what I was looking for when I cold-called, one with some questionable post-flop decisions.
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes you have a couple of beers with dinner though, and have read one too many Commerce/Vegas trip reports, and decide calling would be fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't try to pin this crap on us! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
meep_42
03-23-2005, 02:43 PM
After looking it over, I like a flop raise to thin the field and for the possible free card (though that isn't my primary motivation.)
If I get 3-bet, I'm thinking of folding the turn UI (depending on pot size/opponent action), calling with another to the straight/flush, and raising with 2p/trips.
If I get smooth called and it's HU or 3-way and I get checked to on the turn, i'm betting any card. If bet into, I fold UI (depending on pot odds for the 5 outer/opponent action), call with flush/straight outs. If there were several cold-callers on the flop, i'm taking a free card if offered.
If the river doesn't improve me, i'm seeing a showdown cheap if the pot is shorthanded, most likely mucking if I was bet into on the turn.
-d
[ QUOTE ]
this kind of hand is exactly what I was looking for when I cold-called, one with some questionable post-flop decisions.
[/ QUOTE ]
They just seem to find me without me going looking for them.
/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Frequitude
03-23-2005, 02:45 PM
I still don't really mind a 3-bet, but Evan makes a good point when he says that going 3 bets on the turn in a 2/3 way pot, only to fold the river unimproved sounds pretty bad.
Is there any folding equity in a turn raise if the Villain has, specifically, AK?
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 02:45 PM
Hero called the turn, and UTG folded.
River was an 8.
MP bet, and Hero got distracted by Mrs. Nolanfan, who had discovered a spider in the kitchen that demanded immediate attention, leading to me accidentally clicking "call".
MP had KK, MHIG, and I told Mrs. Nolanfan she owes me $4.
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Is there any folding equity in a turn raise if the Villain has, specifically, AK?
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No.
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 02:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If I get 3-bet, I'm thinking of folding the turn UI (depending on pot size/opponent action
[/ QUOTE ]
If MP bets, I'm getting like 11-1 in this scenario, so I'm not folding.
LOL...nice ending!
[ QUOTE ]
MP had KK, MHIG, and I told Mrs. Nolanfan she owes me $4.
[/ QUOTE ]
to which she promptly responded that you're taking her out to eat with everything you just won anyway so shut up and fold the laundry!
Frequitude
03-23-2005, 02:50 PM
Well, everything worked out perfect. Hero wins and this was a good discussion. One of the better HH's I've read on here in a bit...things to consider on every street.
nice hand
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 02:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
LOL...nice ending!
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MP had KK, MHIG, and I told Mrs. Nolanfan she owes me $4.
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to which she promptly responded that you're taking her out to eat with everything you just won anyway so shut up and fold the laundry!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ha ha, pretty much sums things up correctly. I'll tell you one thing, when there's a spider in the kitchen, the last thing the Mrs. cares about is the fact that Hero is 4-tabling and needs to click the sit out button.
nolanfan34
03-23-2005, 02:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes you have a couple of beers with dinner though, and have read one too many Commerce/Vegas trip reports, and decide calling would be fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't try to pin this crap on us! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's be honest, you guys are bad influences on everyone. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
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I'll tell you one thing, when there's a spider in the kitchen, the last thing the Mrs. cares about is the fact that Hero is 4-tabling and needs to click the sit out button.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're not sharing any news with me...very familiar with this scenario. Except, instead of spiders, it's generally diapers filled with banana surprise.
MercTec
03-23-2005, 03:00 PM
So lets see. If you played this hand as some of us suggested it and raised the flop...lets say you get the same 1 caller and get 3 bet MP and you the the cold caller call.
UTG checks the turn, MP bets, you call again because you pick up the flush draw and you're getting 12-1 regardless and UTG folds.
You catch 2 pair on the river and MP bets.....spider attacks.....you call.
You get a 15BB pot as opposed to a 11BB pot......nh and nice catch /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
PokerBob
03-23-2005, 03:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
OK, so it was only sort of inspired by CDC's apparent love for the button. The cold-call isn't a normal play for me here, but I did think at the time, "well, I'm on the button", thought of CDC's recent posts, and decided I'd make this profitable through my extremely mediocre post-flop skills.
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.
Flop: (13 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds.
Raising seemed like chip spewing, but I thought about it.
Turn: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero ??
What's your line on the turn here? MP2 hadn't done anything out of line, so I had no reason to think that I was ahead at the moment.
[/ QUOTE ]
Easy call IMO. A raise may shut out UTG, but a 3-bet would really blow.
ErrantNight
03-23-2005, 03:44 PM
uh, call? isn't this easy?
mtdoak
03-23-2005, 04:05 PM
First off, its MUCH better to raise here than to cold call. If your really itching to play, 3 bet it, get it heads up. IF your capped, well, you might be in trouble without a good flop.
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