Mirage 40-80 - How Would You Rule?

[Softrock]

First of all, I've never seen a game at this limit with 4 absolutely clueless players at the same time - the only problem was the game moved so slowly, probably 25 hands per hour max.

Anyway, we get to the river with 2 of the clueless players - both nice guys who simply are in way over their heads. The board is all T and lower with a baby pair (33 I believe). Player A bets, player B raises. While player A is contemplating someone says to player B "protect your cards" (he had them way out and unprotected). For some reason this prompts player B to turn over his hand which is JJ. Player A then turns over his hand rather aggressively, toward the middle of the table but clearly face up and we all see he has KK. The dealer picks up the cards and then it's realized that player A did not call the raise. (I'm not sure if someone said something or the dealer realized this). The floor is called over for a ruling. Player A very politely says "he turned his hand over and showed me my hand was good so I thought I won". Player B politley listens to the dealer explain to the floor what had happened and makes no statement.

I'll explain later what the ruling was. My first gut reaction was different than my reasoned conclusion after a several minutes of thought - I was a bit surprised at the different perspectives of several players on this. What do you think?

[mmcd]

Since it's heads-up, I don't really think the hands being exposed is a problem here. It doesn't seem like either of the are dead. If I were the floor, I'd tell the guy with KK he can either call the raise (and take the pot obviously) or fold (let's see just how fishy this guy is).

[shaundeeb]

I know at some of the B&M I've been at the ruling has been that all betting after the hand was exposed is done. So the JJ removes his raise and the KK takes down the pot - the 80 he raised with. Another ruling would be that all river bets were removed.

[dankhank]

i've had a similar thing happen a few times at foxwoods (always starts with one clueless player doing something clueless, inciting the other player to do something weird) and the floor's main rule has been that cards speak. as long as the KK is still in front of him, he can call the raise and take the pot. if the cards got mucked then he better hope a lot of people at the table saw them face up first.

[Jdanz]

luckily it works out correctly this time, but strick rules says an exposed hand is toast, so the raiser showed his jacks is disqualified from the pot, everything afterwards is irrelevant.

-JDanz

[wins_pot]

i don't think an exposed hand is "toast". several times at 25-50nl (bellagio) i've seen a player expose his hand when contemplating a river call to see if he can get a reaction.

[stonecoldnuts]

I think the correct rule is to let KK guy act, whether it be to reraise/call/fold. Depending on the card room I don't think the hands are dead until they hit the muck.

[hogger]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the correct rule is to let KK guy act, whether it be to reraise/call/fold. Depending on the card room I don't think the hands are dead until they hit the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]
read the post - the cards in the muck

[Jdanz]

it's for that exact reason why this rule was initiated, as i understand it's become quite prevelant.

-JDanz

[Ulysses]

I would rule (and have seen this ruling a couple of times) as a couple have already mentioned. Action is now on KK. He can fold/call/raise.

I once saw this happen w/ two drunk guys. The one with the better hand raised and the rest of us all looked on silently with our mouths wide open as the guy with the worse hand called.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
but strick rules says an exposed hand is toast

[/ QUOTE ]
I have never heard of this being a rule anywhere not counting in tournaments where you can get penalized.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
I once saw this happen w/ two drunk guys. The one with the better hand raised and the rest of us all looked on silently with our mouths wide open as the guy with the worse hand called.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just burst out laughing in the middle of my gradschool core class.

-Brad

[Softrock]

My first gut reaction was of the technical variety. Dealer's picked up the cards, player A didn't call the raise, so he can't win. However, my thinking was then guided by the trying to protect the integrity of the game rule. Clearly there were no shenanigans going on here and even though the cards were in the muck, they'd been tabled face up and we all saw them. It certainly would have been bad for the game of poker and may well have influenced badly the two involved to rule on a technicality rather than what was obviously just.

The floor didn't give a reason but gave player A the option to call the raise or fold - he of course called the raise and was given the pot. All in all, a good common sense ruling from my perspective (can't say that "good common sense" is a description I'd use for many of the rulings I've seen).

[jayheaps]

technically, shouldn't he have been give the option to reraise as well.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
but strick rules says an exposed hand is toast, so the raiser showed his jacks is disqualified from the pot, everything afterwards is irrelevant.


[/ QUOTE ]

Who's strick? If you mean strict, then I think you're wrong.

This wasn't a tourney. I don't think I've ever played in a cardroom ringgame where exposing your hand makes it dead.

b

[J.A.Sucker]

Since opening your hand isn't against the rules in any card room that I know of (except in tourneys), who cares. The guy can act accordingly.

[Jdanz]

i lose

[tolbiny]

"If I were the floor, I'd tell the guy with KK he can either call the raise (and take the pot obviously) or fold (let's see just how fishy this guy is)."

Hey- he should be able to reraise, no?

[Softrock]

Of course he should be able to reraise but the other player was not THAT clueless.