hand against DonButtons

[Che]

First level of a Party $55 multi. 6th or 7th hand.

History: I took down the first pot with a button raise after an MP limp. I have not played any other hands, and Don has not put a single chip in the pot.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO (t1930)
Button (t1053)
SB (t985)
<font color="#C00000">Don Buttons - BB (t1000)</font>
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1070)
MP1 (t952)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t1040)</font>
MP3 (t970)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Che calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, DonButtons checks.

Flop: (t60) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">DonButtons bets t15</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, Hero calls t15, SB calls t15.

Turn: (t120) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Don Buttons bets t15</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">Che raises to t150</font>, SB folds, DonButtons calls t135, UTG+1 folds.

River: (t435) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
DonButtons checks.

What should I have done on the river?

Comments on earlier streets also welcome.

Later,
Che

[Jason Strasser]

Hi Che,

First of all, Don is good and has good results, but I think there are certain things he does which arent fundamentally sound (which isnt I guess necessarily bad). But...

Knowing how he plays, I would try to come up with a way to get chips into the damn pot. The issue, however, is that on this board what is going to pay you off? There are no draws, Don is not an idiot. You called the flop and raised the turn which is fairly standard I guess. You could've raised the flop, but in my view it doesn't change too much. On the river, I probably make a smallish value bet and hope to get called by some sort of hand like 66-99 or even A5 or something like that. A pot sized bet has very little purpose on the face of it because you really arent going to get 'good action' (action where u are ahead). If you are suspicious of Don and think he is up to no good, its not a crime to check behind on the river. But knowing his style, I bet 200ish.

[Rushmore]

First, I don't see any reason to play this had from MP. But I know this is a matter of style, so...

You have to assume you're ahead on the river. What else were you hoping for when you played this hand? So it's value bet time, hoping he's got 66 or thereabouts.

About a 40% pot-sized bet oughta do it, 175-200.

[kuro]

His min bet on the flop looks like he was trying to get more money into the pot from everyone and there are no draws on the board. Then he smooth calls your bet on the turn and there is no flush draw. So I think you're looking at trip tens, a boat, or 66-88.

I think I check behind because of the bad kicker and he's certainly capable of check-raising the river.

[MrTop]

I don't see any reason to bet here. He's probably only going to call (or raise) you if he has you beat.

[Lurshy]

I check behind. If he was on a draw, the 3 could have been an out for the str8. I wouldn't want to throw out a bet and see him come over the top, because even if he was bluffing I would have trouble calling with a 4 str8 on the board. Allowing him to limp in from the BB, he could have anything.

You played it like you have trips, waiting for the turn to raise, and he didn't bet into you on the river, is he scared, ready to lay down, or is he setting a trap? It seems there aren't too many hands with which he will call a river bet and pay you off (maybe w/an overpair you get a river call but would he have played an overpair like he did on earlier streets?). The penalty for being wrong is high. He called the turn either because he had a hand, or was taking a card, which may have come. If the card didn't come he folds so you don't get paid off - unless he does a reraise bluff and is that a decision you want to make?

[Simplistic]

excellent insights, however perhaps Don's play is smooth calling the raise to appear strong and get a free showdown?

all things being said, I check behind, kicker isn't great and as others have said, you're going to get called/raised most of the time when you're beat.

[Sam T.]

Unless Don's letting his dog play, you know he has something. By calling the turn bet he's saying he either doesn't believe you have a ten, doesn't care that you have a ten, or that he has a ten as well. Two out of these three are really bad news for you.

I know it's not always appropriate advice, but when I read the hand history I heard Sklansky saying, "Never make a bet when a raise will make you throw up."

Sam

[jackdaniels]

I don't play on Party but what did you think he had when he bet 1/4 of the pot OOP on the flop and then bet 1/10 of the pot OOP on the turn? I haven't played against Don but this is usually a blocking bet or a weak lead. Since there weren't any draws on board, I'm guessing weak lead. Once he smooth calls your turn raise WITH A PLAYER LEFT TO ACT you have to put him on a big hand. The way this played out I have him on 55, a big 10, some weird 10-5/10-4/10-3 (BB special) or (maybe) PP 66-99, although that bets a little more on flop with players left to act - nobody gives 3 players a chance to catch overcards that cheap..

All other streets are fine - I play it the same. On river, I check behind since I can't call an all in re-raise from Don (if C/R).

I think you and Don, both winning players, have a pretty good handle of, and mutual respect for each other's playing style. It is very early in the tourney, no need to get fancy, I don't think. Don knows you have a good hand to be raising on the turn and you know that Don is getting a free play in BB with all sorts of hand that beats you, like XT where X&gt;7 and will not be calling if he does not have a good hand either. If he had T5 or 55, I guess he may check the turn hoping to trap. Against unknown opponents, a raise is in order but against Don, checking behind is not weakish, IMO.

How is that for respect, Don?. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Did Don show T7 too? I would be interested to know the results and Don's thoughts.

[adanthar]

Is this really a hand I want to limp PF with a deeper stack, even after only 1 limper? Hmmm...I need to try that out for a while.

On the river, not only do I check but if DonButton were to make a decent bet I'd strongly consider folding.

[MLG]

I think checking behind is extremely weak. In fact, Don knows Che does not need a big hand here to raise the turn. A good player will raise these two min bets with air pretty frequently. If your plan is to check behind on the river here, you get sufficiently little value out of your flopped monster to not make the hand worth playing in the first place. Bet about 3/4 the pot and hope Don calls with A5, or a PP.

[Che]

You all know what I had so you know I have a strong hand.

But, do I really *need* to have a strong hand to raise after someone minbets twice OOP into a multilimper pot?

It's not like anyone is screaming strength on this scary board, ya know.

Just a little food for thought. Results later this afternoon...

Che

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I think checking behind is extremely weak. In fact, Don knows Che does not need a big hand here to raise the turn. A good player will raise these two min bets with air pretty frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but does a good player minbet twice on a board with two tens on it without some sort of reason?

edit: The flop minbet by Don, to me, says 'I have something and I want to know if there's a ten out there'. So three people call the flop, and he minbets again on the turn? What do you put him on?

[MLG]

66-99,A5,56 are legitimate possibilities for him in my mind.

[adanthar]

I edited before you replied, but a lone 5 just doesn't minbet this turn after 3 people call the flop. If it does Don isn't the hand reader I give him credit for. The same goes for middle pairs, really. OK, the first caller on this rainbow board that couldn't have hit anyone has A9o, the second has 77...what's the third got? And why's Don minbetting again when there's like a 90% chance he's getting raised?

I think 55 is a more legitimate hand than any of the above and I wouldn't even think of betting this river against Don in particular without a much better kicker.

[MLG]

hmmmm, you may be right, we'll see.

[Che]

I checked behind. Don showed an unimproved pocket pair. MHIG.

FWIW I really had no read on how Don plays other than that he is a respected 2+2er so he must be reasonably good at a minimum.

Given that read, I figured betting the river was a win little/lose big situation. He probably just calls with the hands I'm beating (pocket pairs, Ax that hit the x, even 54 for the small 2-pair) and pushes with the hands that beat me (boats, maybe the straight or a bigger T). Some hands that beat me will just call, I suppose (e.g. T8), but nothing I'm beating will fold.

I would have bet against an unknown Party opponent, but I checked for the above reasons.

I posted this because not value betting the river enough is a leak in my game, and I'm trying to learn when to get the extra chips I should get rather than checking behind so much. Obviously, in this case I would have gotten a call on a reasonable bet, but I think the bet would have been -EV against his full range of hands.

Am I playing weak?

Later,
Che

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
If your plan is to check behind on the river here, you get sufficiently little value out of your flopped monster to not make the hand worth playing in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I wouldn't have played the hand if I knew I would end up with a tough river decision against the one decent player at the table, but the odds of that were rather small so I played it. Against anyone else at that table, I value bet the river (and call any raise).

Later,
Che

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I checked behind. Don showed an unimproved pocket pair. MHIG.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with going off a read is that it doesn't account for the times when an otherwise very good player butchers a hand.

[MLG]

I think you played this river weak, but I do not think its clear cut. Interestingly, the fact that Don knows you are a good player will probably lead him to call on the turn with a wider variety of hands. Every player plays certain situations sub-optimally, I think this is one for Don.

[DonButtons]

I was very suprised when you checked behind on the river, I would def. value bet this river.

My turn call is bad-but like I said-I didnt realize who you were at the time, till after the hand. But vs a unkwown, I usually call here, specially in the higher buy in tournaments, maybe this is a fold in a $50, but people usually play mid pairs like you did. Now, I usually would fold pretty fast here, if I knew you were the infamous che /images/graemlins/wink.gif

This is def. one of those hands I played very bad this week. Nice finish BTW.