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slickpoppa
03-23-2005, 02:44 AM
Many people have being questioning the Florida court's decisions in the Schiavo case, but I doubt that most of these people have actually read the court's reasoning. So here it is.


The first appeal

ALTENBERND, Judge.
Robert and Mary Schindler, the parents of Theresa Marie Schiavo, appeal the trial court's order authorizing the discontinuance of artificial life support to their adult daughter. Michael Schiavo, Theresa's husband and guardian, petitioned the trial court in May 1998 for entry of this order. We have carefully reviewed the record. The trial court made a difficult decision after considering all of the evidence and the applicable law. We conclude that the trial court's decision is supported by competent, substantial evidence and that it correctly applies the law. Accordingly, we affirm the decision.
Theresa Marie Schindler was born on December 3, 1963, and lived with or near her parents in Pennsylvania until she married Michael Schiavo on November 10, 1984. Michael and Theresa moved to Florida in 1986. They were happily married and both were employed. They had no children.
On February 25, 1990, their lives changed. Theresa, age 27, suffered a cardiac arrest as a result of a potassium imbalance. Michael called 911, and Theresa was rushed to the hospital. She never regained consciousness.
Since 1990, Theresa has lived in nursing homes with constant care. She is fed and hydrated by tubes. The staff changes her diapers regularly. She has had numerous health problems, but none have been life threatening.
The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent vegetative state is not simply a coma. [FN1] She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractures of her hands, elbows, knees, and feet.


FN1. For more extensive discussions of persistent vegetative state, see Dorothy J. McNoble, The Cruzan Decision--A Surgeon's Perspective, 20 Mem. St. U.L.Rev. 569, 610 n. 3 (1990); John B. Oldershaw, M.D., J.D., et al., Persistent Vegetative State: Medical, Religious, Economic and Legal Perspectives, 1 DePaul J. Health Care L. 495-536 (1997).


Over the span of this last decade, Theresa's brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years.
Theresa has been blessed with loving parents and a loving husband. Many patients in this condition would have been abandoned by friends and family within the first year. Michael has continued to care for her and to visit her all these years. He has never divorced her. He has become a professional respiratory therapist and works in a nearby hospital. As a guardian, he has always attempted to provide optimum treatment for his wife. *178 He has been a diligent watch guard of Theresa's care, never hesitating to annoy the nursing staff in order to assure that she receives the proper treatment.
Theresa's parents have continued to love her and visit her often. No one questions the sincerity of their prayers for the divine miracle that now is Theresa's only hope to regain any level of normal existence. No one questions that they have filed this appeal out of love for their daughter.
This lawsuit is affected by an earlier lawsuit. In the early 1990s, Michael Schiavo, as Theresa's guardian, filed a medical malpractice lawsuit. That case resulted in a sizable award of money for Theresa. This fund remains sufficient to care for Theresa for many years. If she were to die today, her husband would inherit the money under the laws of intestacy. If Michael eventually divorced Theresa in order to have a more normal family life, the fund remaining at the end of Theresa's life would presumably go to her parents.
Since the resolution of the malpractice lawsuit, both Michael and the Schindlers have become suspicious that the other party is assessing Theresa's wishes based upon their own monetary self-interest. The trial court discounted this concern, and we see no evidence in this record that either Michael or the Schindlers seek monetary gain from their actions. Michael and the Schindlers simply cannot agree on what decision Theresa would make today if she were able to assess her own condition and make her own decision.
There has been discussion among the parties that the money remaining when Theresa dies should be given to a suitable charity as a lasting memorial. If anything is undeniable in this case, it is that Theresa would never wish for this money to drive a wedge between the people she loves. We have no jurisdiction over the disposition of this money, but hopefully these parties will consider Theresa's desires and her memory when a decision about the money is ultimately required.
This is a case to authorize the termination of life-prolonging procedures under chapter 765, Florida Statutes (1997), and under the constitutional guidelines enunciated in In re Guardianship of Browning, 568 So.2d 4 (Fla.1990). [FN2] The Schindlers have raised three legal issues that warrant brief discussion.


FN2. This case does not involve section 765.404, Florida Statutes (2000). This new legislative enactment permits use of a "best interests" standard for discontinuing life-prolonging procedures when a patient in a persistent vegetative state has no friend or family member to serve as a proxy.


First, the Schindlers maintain that the trial court was required to appoint a guardian ad litem for this proceeding because Michael stands to inherit under the laws of intestacy. When a living will or other advance directive does not exist, it stands to reason that the surrogate decision-maker will be a person who is close to the patient and thereby likely to inherit from the patient. See § 765.401, Fla.Stat. (2000). Thus, the fact that a surrogate decision-maker may ultimately inherit from the patient should not automatically compel the appointment of a guardian. On the other hand, there may be occasions when an inheritance could be a reason to question a surrogate's ability to make an objective decision.
In this case, however, Michael Schiavo has not been allowed to make a decision to disconnect life-support. The Schindlers have not been allowed to make a decision to maintain life-support. Each party in this case, absent their disagreement, might have been a suitable surrogate decision-maker for Theresa. Because Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers could not agree on the proper decision and the inheritance issue created the appearance of conflict, Michael Schiavo, as the guardian of Theresa, invoked the trial court's jurisdiction to allow the trial court to serve as the surrogate decision-maker.
*179 In this court's decision in In re Guardianship of Browning, 543 So.2d 258, 273-74 (Fla. 2d DCA 1989), we described, in dicta, a method for judicial review of a surrogate's decision. The supreme court's decision affirming In re Guardianship of Browning did not squarely approve or reject the details of our proposed method. However, the supreme court recognized that the circuit court's jurisdiction could be invoked in two manners:
We emphasize, as did the district court, that courts are always open to adjudicate legitimate questions pertaining to the written or oral instructions. First, the surrogate or proxy may choose to present the question to the court for resolution. Second, interested parties may challenge the decision of the proxy or surrogate.
In re Guardianship of Browning, 568 So.2d at 16 (footnote omitted).
[1] In this case, Michael Schiavo used the first approach. Under these circumstances, the two parties, as adversaries, present their evidence to the trial court. The trial court determines whether the evidence is sufficient to allow it to make the decision for the ward to discontinue life support. In this context, the trial court essentially serves as the ward's guardian. Although we do not rule out the occasional need for a guardian in this type of proceeding, a guardian ad litem would tend to duplicate the function of the judge, would add little of value to this process, and might cause the process to be influenced by hearsay or matters outside the record. Accordingly, we affirm the trial court's discretionary decision in this case to proceed without a guardian ad litem.
Second, the Schindlers argue that the trial court should not have heard evidence from Beverly Tyler, the executive director of Georgia Health Decisions. Although it is doubtful that this issue is preserved for appeal, we have reviewed the issue as if it were. Ms. Tyler has studied American values, opinions, and attitudes about the decision to discontinue life-support systems. As a result, she has some special expertise concerning the words and expressions that Americans often use in discussing these difficult issues. She also has knowledge about trends within American attitudes on this subject.
[2] We have considerable doubt that Ms. Tyler's testimony provided much in the way of relevant evidence. She testified about some social science surveys. Apparently most people, even those who favor initial life-supporting medical treatment, indicate that they would not wish this treatment to continue indefinitely once their medical condition presented no reasonable basis for a cure. There is some risk that a trial judge could rely upon this type of survey evidence to make a "best interests" decision for the ward. In this case, however, we are convinced that the trial judge did not give undue weight to this evidence and that the court made a proper surrogate decision rather than a best interests decision.
[3] Finally, the Schindlers argue that the testimony, which was conflicting, was insufficient to support the trial court's decision by clear and convincing evidence. We have reviewed that testimony and conclude that the trial court had sufficient evidence to make this decision. The clear and convincing standard of proof, while very high, permits a decision in the face of inconsistent or conflicting evidence. See In re Guardianship of Browning, 543 So.2d at 273.
[4] In Browning, we stated:
In making this difficult decision, a surrogate decisionmaker should err on the side of life.... In cases of doubt, we must assume that a patient would choose to defend life in exercising his or her right of privacy.
In re Guardianship of Browning, 543 So.2d at 273. We reconfirm today that a court's default position must favor life.
[5] The testimony in this case establishes that Theresa was very young and *180 very healthy when this tragedy struck. Like many young people without children, she had not prepared a will, much less a living will. She had been raised in the Catholic faith, but did not regularly attend mass or have a religious advisor who could assist the court in weighing her religious attitudes about life-support methods. Her statements to her friends and family about the dying process were few and they were oral. Nevertheless, those statements, along with other evidence about Theresa, gave the trial court a sufficient basis to make this decision for her.
In the final analysis, the difficult question that faced the trial court was whether Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, not after a few weeks in a coma, but after ten years in a persistent vegetative state that has robbed her of most of her cerebrum and all but the most instinctive of neurological functions, with no hope of a medical cure but with sufficient money and strength of body to live indefinitely, would choose to continue the constant nursing care and the supporting tubes in hopes that a miracle would somehow recreate her missing brain tissue, or whether she would wish to permit a natural death process to take its course and for her family members and loved ones to be free to continue their lives. After due consideration, we conclude that the trial judge had clear and convincing evidence to answer this question as he did.
Affirmed.

Trial court's second analysis of the evidence

GREER, J.
*1 THIS CAUSE came on to be heard for an evidentiary hearing on the Motion for Relief from Judgment filed by Robert and Mary Schlinder ("Respondents") pursuant to the Mandate issued by the Second District Court of Appeal on October 17, 2001 ("Mandate"). Before the court were Patricia Fields Anderson, Esquire, attorney for Respondents; and George J. Felos, Esquire, attorney for Michael Schiavo, as Guardian of the Person of Theresa Marie Schiavo ("Petitioner"). The evidentiary hearing commenced on October 11, 2002 and concluded on October 22, 2002 during which time the court heard testimony on separate days from the treating physician of Terry Schiavo and five board-certified expert physicians, two selected by the Petitioner, two selected by the Respondents and one selected by the court since the parties could not agree upon an independent fifth expert. This procedure was pursuant to the Mandate. The court also received into evidence numerous exhibits including copies of published medical articles, copies of summaries of published medical articles, CT Scans and videos of medical examinations. The court also had the opportunity to observe the witnesses when they testified, to note body language, pauses, inflections and other non-verbal factors utilized in determining credibility which would not appear in a transcript of these proceedings. The court also heard excellent closing arguments from the attorneys who were well prepared and quite knowledgeable in this area of the law. Based thereupon, the court makes the following findings of fact and conclusions of law.
[1] [2] Initially, the Mandate required the court to hear testimony from five expert medical witnesses to determine whether or not "new treatment offers sufficient promise of increased cognitive function in Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex--significantly improving the quality of Mrs. Schiavo's life--so that she herself would elect to undergo that treatment and would reverse the prior decision to withdraw life-prolonging procedures". The Mandate provided that the evidentiary hearing was "only for the purpose of assessing her current medical condition, the nature of the new medical treatment and their acceptance in the relevant scientific community, the probable efficacy of these new treatments and any other factors the trial court deems relevant". Based thereupon, this court declined to take lay testimony and also declined to consider other factors inasmuch as the focus of the Mandate was with new medical treatment and its probable effect upon Terry Schiavo.
In response to the Mandate, the court directed that a physical examination of Terry Schiavo be done by her treating physician. The court then directed Dr. Victor Gambone, M.D. testify, essentially to set the stage and provide a basis for the five experts to begin their examinations and ultimately provide their testimony. The court does not consider the testimony of Dr. Gambone to be relevant to the ultimate decision this court is required to make, confining itself instead to the testimony of the five experts for that purpose. Additionally, the video examinations which formed a part of the evidentiary hearing and which the court viewed in their entirety at the requests of both parties, contained conversations between the parties and various doctors. Some of these conversations could be considered probative as either admissions against interests or bolstering of positions. Nevertheless, the parties were not under oath at that time and, as a consequence, the court has not and will not consider those statements except to assess any response or non-response that Terry Schiavo may have had thereto.
*2 All of the five expert medical physicians have very impressive credentials and resumes. The record documents those credentials so they need not be set forth herein. All are board-certified which was a requirement of the Mandate. Several teach or have taught in medical colleges, several are prolific writers for medical journals, some are young and some are not so young but, by and large, the court heard five days of excellent medical testimony concerning the issue of persistent vegetative state, possible treatment options and how these may or may not have an effect on Terry Schiavo. They were all well prepared, generally having reviewed all of the available medical records, videos, etc. That is not to say, however, that some of the testimony was more credible than other testimony as set forth hereafter.
The majority of the testimony before the court dealt with the current medical condition of Terry Schiavo. Of course, it was important to determine that in order for there to be valid opinions as to new treatments and its probable efficacy upon her. Incidentally, the court early-on defined "new treatment" to include any treatment that had not been attempted since it did not seem appropriate to foster a debate as to whether or not a treatment discovered five years ago was in fact "new". The video tapes reviewed by the court and which were featured prominently in the testimony of the doctors were obviously directed to her present physical condition.
Three of the five doctors testified that Terry Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state, although Dr. Cranford felt it more appropriate to phrase it permanent vegetative state which meant that the condition was irreversible. Two of the doctors felt that she was not in a persistent vegetative state. These two sets of opinions had little in common. Those who felt she was not in a persistent vegetative state placed great emphasis upon her interaction with her mother during Dr. Maxfield's examination and the tracking of a balloon. Those who felt that she was in a persistent vegetative state felt that her actions were neither consistent nor reproducible but rather were random reflexes in response to stimuli. However, the court has not and will not make its decision or a simple head count but will instead consider all factors.
At first blush, the video of Terry Schiavo appearing to smile and look lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for how she followed the Mickey Mouse balloon held by her father. The court has carefully viewed the videotapes as requested by counsel and does find that these actions were neither consistent nor reproducible. For instance, Terry Schiavo appeared to have the same look on her face when Dr. Cranford rubbed her neck. Dr. Greer testified she had a smile during his (non-videoed) examination. Also, Mr. Schlinder tried several more times to have her eyes follow the Mickey Mouse balloon but without success. Also, she clearly does not consistently respond to her mother. The court finds that based on the credible evidence, cognitive function would manifest itself in a constant response to stimuli.
*3 Dr. Hammesfahr testified that he felt that he was able to get Terry Schiavo to reproduce repeatedly to his commands. However, by the court's count, he gave 105 commands to Terry Schiavo and, at his direction, Mrs. Schindler gave an additional 6 commands. Again, by the court's count, he asked her 61 questions and Mrs. Schindler, at his direction, asked her an additional 11 questions. The court saw few actions that could be considered responsive to either those commands or those questions. The videographer focused on her hands when Dr. Hammesfahr was asking her to squeeze. While Dr. Hammesfahr testified that she squeezed his finger on command, the video would not appear to support that and his reaction on the video likewise would not appear to support that testimony.
The record is replete with the doctors disagreeing over what the videotapes appeared to portray. For instance, was it a visual orienting reflex or was it tracking. Was it a cognitive focus of the eyes or was it a startle response looking to the sound. Perhaps the most compelling testimony was that of Dr. Bambakidis who explained to the court the agony and soul-searching which he underwent to arrive at his opinion that Terry Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state. He concluded that all the data as a whole supports permanent vegetative state. While the others may have gone through such an analysis, their testimony does not indicate that.
Another issue involved the piano music played via cassette tape in her room during Dr. Hammesfahr examination. Dr. Maxfield testified she related to it and "tried to sing". However, this music was played markedly louder than any other music or voice commands of the doctors. It was probably louder than the handclasp or dropped objects that always seemed to produce a startle reflex. Dr. Greer testified that the length of the reflex depends on the direction of the stimulation.
Dr. Maxfield also felt that '02 CT Scan showed improvement in the quality of the remaining brain matter and that one reason Terry Schiavo was not in a persistent vegetative state was that she could swallow her own saliva and breathe on her own. These views were not supported by any of the other doctors and Drs. Greer, Bambakidis and Cranford strongly disagreed with his '02 CT Scan opinion. Dr. Cranford further testified that saliva handling is from the brain stem, a reflex.
Viewing all of the evidence as a whole, and acknowledging that medicine is not a precise science, the court finds that the credible evidence overwhelmingly supports the view that Terry Schiavo remains in a persistent vegetative state. Even Dr. Maxfield acknowledges that vegetative patients can track on occasion and that smiling can be a reflex.
The real issue in this case, however, deals with treatment options for Terry Schiavo and whether or not they will have any positive affect so as to "significantly improve her quality of life". The treatment options essentially were the vasodilatation therapy offered by Dr. Hammesfahr and the hyperbaric therapy proposed by Dr. Maxfield. While none of the doctors are really involved in stem cell therapy, it was discussed at great length by each of them. Perhaps one of the few agreements between these experts is that stem cell research is currently at the experimental stage and is years away from being accepted either medically or politically. It would not appear from the testimony that this is a viable treatment option at this time.
*4 Hyperbaric therapy has been in use for more than a century. It is used abroad far more than it is used domestically. Medicare recognizes only eleven procedures involving hyperbaric therapy while Russia recognizes almost seven times that many. Dr. Maxfield felt there was an 80% chance of improvement in Spect Scan results from hyperbaric therapy. He has seen such with similar patients. Also, he felt there was a significant probability Terry Schiavo would improve cognitive ability with hyperbaric treatment. Drs. Greer, Bambakidis and Cranford have all referred patients for hyperbaric therapy but none for this type of brain injury. They felt that such therapy would have no affect on Terry Schiavo. It is interesting to note the absence of any case studies since this therapy is not new and this condition has long been in the medical arena.
Dr. Hammesfahr feels his vasodilatation therapy will have a positive affect on Terry Schiavo. Drs. Greer, Bambakidis and Cranford do not feel it will have such an affect. It is clear that this therapy is not recognized in the medical community. Dr. Hammesfahr operates his clinic on a cash basis in advance which made the discussion regarding Medicare eligibility quite irrelevant. A lot of the time also was spent regarding his nominations for a Nobel Prize. While he certainly is a self-promoter and should have had for the court's review a copy of the letter from the Nobel committee in Stockholm, Sweden, the truth of the matter is that he is probably the only person involved in these proceedings who had a United States Congressman recommend him for such an award. Whether the committee "accepted" the nomination, "received" the nomination or whatever, it is not that significant. What is significant, however, and what undemises his creditability is that he did not present to this court any evidence other than his generalized statements as to the efficacy of his therapy on brain damaged individuals like Terry Schiavo. He testified that he has treated about 50 patients in the same or worse condition than Terry Schiavo since 1994 but he offered no names, no case studies, no videos and no tests results to support his claim that he had success in all but one of them. If his therapy is as effective as he would lead this court to believe, it is inconceivable that he would not produce clinical results of these patients he has treated. And surely the medical literature would be replete with this new, now patented, procedure. Yet, he has only published one article and that was in 1995 involving some 63 patients, 60% of whom were suffering from whiplash. None of these patients were in a persistent vegetative state and all were conversant. Even he acknowledges that he is aware of no article or study that shows vasodilatation therapy to be an effective treatment for persistent vegetative state patients. The court can only assume that such substantiations are not available, not just catalogued in such a way that they can not be readily identified as he testified.
*5 Neither Dr. Hammesfahr nor Dr. Maxfield was able to credibly testify that the treatment options that they offered would significantly improve Terry Schiavo's quality of life. While Dr. Hammesfahr blithely stated he should be able to get her to talk, he admitted he was not sure in what way he can improve her condition although he feels certain her can. He also told the court that "only rarely" do his patients have no improvement. Again, he is extremely short of specifics. Dr. Maxfield spoke of a "chance" of recovery although he stated there was a significant probability that hyperbaric therapy would improve her condition. It is clear from the evidence that these therapies are experimental insofar as the medical community is concerned with regard to patients like Terry Schiavo which is borne out by the total absence of supporting case studies or medical literature. The Mandate requires something more than a belief, hope or "some" improvement. It requires this court to find, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the treatment offers such sufficient promise of increased cognitive function in Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex so as to significantly improve her quality of life. There is no such testimony, much less a preponderance of the evidence to that effect. The other doctors, by contrast, all testified that there was no treatment available to improve her quality of life. They were also able to credibly testify that neither hyperbaric therapy nor vasodilatation therapy was an effective treatment for this sort of injury. That being the case, the court concludes that the Respondents have not met the burden of proof cast upon them by the Mandate and their Motion. Accordingly, it is
ORDERED AND AJDUDGED that the Motion for Relief from Judgment filed herein by Robert and Mary Schindler, Respondents, be and the same is hereby denied.
In the event the Motion for Relief from Judgement is denied, the Mandate also requires this court to follow the dictates of the prior Mandate of the Second District Court of Appeal and "enter an order scheduling the withdrawal of life- support". Accordingly, it is
FURTHER ORDERED AND ADJUDGED that Michael Schiavo, as Guardian of the Person of Theresa Marie Schiavo, shall withdraw or cause to be withdrawn the artificial life-support (hydration and nutrition tube) from Theresa Marie Schiavo at 3:00 p.m. on January 3, 2003.

whiskeytown
03-23-2005, 11:48 AM
the court did a better job of researching the "Nobel Prize Nominated" doctor's claims then most media outlets -

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009

-------------------------------

the other thing that really disturbs me is Randall Terry being the family's spokesman - he's as close to "Christian Taliban" as you can get without actually being in power - I guarantee you if people like him got elected the Internet and our little "ungodly' poker hobby would be regulated out of existance within a week.

still sucks though that since she's being let go that they can't expedite the process humanely - the idea of being forced to starve to death for two weeks is gruesome - someone just slip me a carbon monoxide mask if I'm in that spot....gratsi.

RB

Zygote
03-23-2005, 12:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
still sucks though that since she's being let go that they can't expedite the process humanely - the idea of being forced to starve to death for two weeks is gruesome - someone just slip me a carbon monoxide mask if I'm in that spot....gratsi.


[/ QUOTE ]

the pro-life people are responsible for the fact she's dying this way. aside from which, my understanding is taht without a cerebral cortex she is psychologically non-existent and,therefore, cannot be aware of the experience.

Zygote
03-23-2005, 12:34 PM
nice post.

i suspect you won't get many responses because the case is almost indisputable.

adios
03-23-2005, 12:38 PM
Thanks for the link. Interesting.

You wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
the other thing that really disturbs me is Randall Terry being the family's spokesman - he's as close to "Christian Taliban" as you can get without actually being in power - I guarantee you if people like him got elected the Internet and our little "ungodly' poker hobby would be regulated out of existance within a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those that believe the Schiavo case is a victory for the "right to die" cause may be right about this particular case but I'm thinking now that the battle may be won but the "war" will be lost or suffer a huge setback. In light of this case I suspect that a lot of new laws will be passed.

[ QUOTE ]
still sucks though that since she's being let go that they can't expedite the process humanely - the idea of being forced to starve to death for two weeks is gruesome - someone just slip me a carbon monoxide mask if I'm in that spot....gratsi.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see leglislative bodies moving towards a euthanasia type remedy for someone like Terri Schiavo. What I see is it becoming more difficult to disconnect the feeding tube. Could be wrong about that so we'll see.

adios
03-23-2005, 12:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
my understanding is taht without a cerebral cortex she is psychologically non-existent and,therefore, cannot be aware of the experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple question, which is more humane, disconnecting the feeding tube depriving her of nutrition and hydration taking days perhaps weeks for her to succumb or giving her a lethal injection of a drug that terminates her life quickly? If a dog had lost it's cerebral cortex we'd kill it by some sort of lethal injection. So if it's more humane to use the lethal injection then we're treating Terri Schiavo worse than we'd treat a dog.

elwoodblues
03-23-2005, 01:02 PM
I find it interesting that we call putting a dog out of its misery "humane" treatment.

adios
03-23-2005, 01:05 PM
I said "more humane."

elwoodblues
03-23-2005, 01:08 PM
I wasn't referring specifically to what you wrote. Generally, people refer to "putting down" a sick animal as "humane" treatment. It is an interesting word to use in that context given the current debate.

Zygote
03-23-2005, 01:25 PM
well humane doesn't really matter anymore. Do you care how you kill a plant? Do you pull it from its roots, or do you stop feeding it? Does it make a difference? Regardless, like i said, the only reason she is being treated this way is because they are not allowed to give her a lethal injection. That is because the prolife people believe this would be too much of an action towards killing her. Therefore, instead of lethally injecting her, they stop feeding her. She will die by her own merits under these circumstance and this seems to make people happier.

MMMMMM
03-23-2005, 01:33 PM
True, Terri will be dying worse than a dog dies in a pound if this is carried out.

People die of dehydration far faster than starvation. Dehydration death is not pretty and can cause hallucinations and some very painful headaches if I'm correctly remembering the old survival book I once read.

Also, I read recently that Terri has not lost her entire cerebral cortex. Who knows what she may be feeling or perceiving or even thinking, in perhaps a dreamlike way?

When a very close and loved relative of mine was slipping into a coma prior to dying, the doctors told me she could not respond but she might be able to hear, since hearing is the last sense to leave. I had arrived from out of state by plane as fast as I could but she was already unresponsive, as she had already started slipping intoi the coma well before I arrived.

So I sat and talked with her and read to her in the hospital for the next couple of days, occasionally urging her to get better. No response. Then perhaps the next afternoon I told her I loved her: again no response. I repeated it one more time and her eyes flew wide open and she lifted her head up and looked straight in my eyes with a look that said it all; it was a moment of real eye/soul/heart contact. It was also one of the most beautiful looks I have ever seen. Then she sank back into the bed and never opened her eyes again.

I still talked and read to her over the next few days and encouraged her to please get better (we did not know for sure at that time that it was hopeless but we did knew it was a long shot for her to live). Unfortunately it did turn out to be hopeless; she sank deeper and deeper into a coma. She was being cared for by one of the very best doctors, and he then told us it was becoming complete organ failure brought on by the illness, and that there was now ZERO chance of recovery and the only thing keeping her alive temporarily was the massive around-the-clock medication/chemicals being pumped through her veins. So we decided to let the doctors dial her IV down and within a few minutes of that she passed on. My mother had also previously told us that she would never want to be kept alive in a state like that. But it all happened so fast, in like a week and a half from the illness's onset, that that was never really an issue because at the end she really couldn't have been kept alive very much longer no matter what.

So who really knows what Terri is feeling or sensing or even thinking to some extent. Her parents say she responds and what they get back from Michael and others is, "prove it". "Duplicate it". I mean come on that is ridiculous. It took a heroic effort for my mother to open her eyes from a coma and look at me like that and there was no way she could have "duplicated it". However she was actively dying whereas Terri is persisting. Terri's state doesn't mean Terri has no feeling, no consciousness, no thought. Terri is not brain dead.

Who knows what she is feeling, dreaming or even thinking in some way. Maybe she could live another 15 years like this. What is so bad about that if she is not in pain? Who knows what good , or what realizations, someone many experience when in that semi-aware state?

With all the legal talk and controversy, I think it is Terri who should be given the benefit of the doubt--and I just can't bring myself to trust Michael Schiavo. There have been varying medical opinions. This is an example of the letter of the law being followed to the detriment of the spirit and purpose of the law. Euthanasia is not allowed in the USA. Terri is not on "life-support" systems or medication to keep her heart pumping or anything like that. What she is on is simply liquid FOOD. This starvation/dehydration process is euthanasia, and I think it is immoral to not give Terri and Terri's life the benefit oif the doubt.

whiskeytown
03-23-2005, 01:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Those that believe the Schiavo case is a victory for the "right to die" cause may be right about this particular case but I'm thinking now that the battle may be won but the "war" will be lost or suffer a huge setback. In light of this case I suspect that a lot of new laws will be passed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right - while the Republicans seethed and growled over gay marriage in SF early last year, deep down they were overjoyed at how it would galvanize their base during the 2004 election - And Tom Delay has made it clear that this is gonna be a banner point for the GOP this year. (Gawd, I hope Tom Delay gets kicked off the ethics committee - what a dumbass)

I totally understand and would not want life support in that case if it were me, and I think most Americans agree - and that's WHY so many of them (what, 70 percent is one stat I read) think she should be allowed to pass on, esp. if those were her wishes as expressed to her husband.

it's the letting her starve to death that creeps me out. Even though she isn't aware of it, it's just the concept that bugs me - I'd rather see an injection finish it weeks earlier.

RB

elwoodblues
03-23-2005, 01:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is an example of the letter of the law being followed to the detriment of the spirit and purpose of the law.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more.

The purpose of the law is to have those who are most likely to know the intents and wishes of the person make decisions on their behalf when they have not committed their wishes to paper in a living will or similar document. That is PRECISELY what the lower courts are allowing to happen.

MMMMMM
03-23-2005, 01:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is an example of the letter of the law being followed to the detriment of the spirit and purpose of the law.

-----------------------------------------------

I couldn't disagree more.

The purpose of the law is to have those who are most likely to know the intents and wishes of the person make decisions on their behalf when they have not committed their wishes to paper in a living will or similar document. That is PRECISELY what the lower courts are allowing to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, BUT you can't weigh Michael Schiavo's testimony (regarding Terri's wishes) entirely at face value. The law, or at least the courts, should recognize that his very possible major conflict of interest means that his word as to Terri's wishes should carry no more weight than the word of her parents.

So the letter of the law says his word should count more--but common sense says it shouldn't. If I were on one of those juries they wouldn't have slid this one past me.

elwoodblues
03-23-2005, 02:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, BUT you can't weigh Michael Schiavo's testimony (regarding Terri's wishes) entirely at face value. The law, or at least the courts, should recognize that his very possible major conflict of interest means that his word as to Terri's wishes should carry no more weight than the word of her parents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't. I assume that the evidence of his alterior motive was introduced at trial and if it wasn't you don't get to relitigate those things. I also assume that the guardian ad litem appointed by governor Bush (under Terri's law) considered everything when he/she came to the same conclusion --- Terri wanted to die in this situation.

slickpoppa
03-23-2005, 02:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Yes, BUT you can't weigh Michael Schiavo's testimony (regarding Terri's wishes) entirely at face value. The law, or at least the courts, should recognize that his very possible major conflict of interest means that his word as to Terri's wishes should carry no more weight than the word of her parents.

So the letter of the law says his word should count more--but common sense says it shouldn't. If I were on one of those juries they wouldn't have slid this one past me.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, why should there be a presumption that a husband is motivated by money? Virtually anytime a case like this comes up, there is going to be life insurance or other money at stake. Are we always going to assume that the husband or wife is biased because of the money? If anything, the burden of proof should be on the other party (in this case the parents) to show that the spouse has alterior motives. And in this case, there is absolutely no evidence that Michael Schiavo did not love his wife and would not be looking out for her best interests. The appeals court recognized the possible conflict of interest, and determined that there was no merit to it:

[ QUOTE ]
In the early 1990s, Michael Schiavo, as Theresa's guardian, filed a medical malpractice lawsuit. That case resulted in a sizable award of money for Theresa. This fund remains sufficient to care for Theresa for many years. If she were to die today, her husband would inherit the money under the laws of intestacy. If Michael eventually divorced Theresa in order to have a more normal family life, the fund remaining at the end of Theresa's life would presumably go to her parents.
Since the resolution of the malpractice lawsuit, both Michael and the Schindlers have become suspicious that the other party is assessing Theresa's wishes based upon their own monetary self-interest. The trial court discounted this concern, and we see no evidence in this record that either Michael or the Schindlers seek monetary gain from their actions. Michael and the Schindlers simply cannot agree on what decision Theresa would make today if she were able to assess her own condition and make her own decision.


[/ QUOTE ]

MMMMMM
03-23-2005, 02:36 PM
The presumption should not be that he IS motivated by money, but that he MIGHT be--or by any number of other conflicting things, such as the desire to be unencvumbered in his new life with his girlfriend and kids.

The point is, you can't consider his testimony necessarily pure, even though it might be.

MMMMMM
03-23-2005, 02:43 PM
"Michael Schiavo once tried to kill his wife Terri with insulin shots, according to a former caregiver for the brain-injured Florida woman.

The estranged husband -- who is living with another woman with whom he has two children -- "wants her to die; he doesn't want the truth to be known," said Carla Sauer Iyer in an interview this morning on the Fox News Channel program "Fox and Friends."

WorldNetDaily reported the registered nurse's testimony in 2003 when it was presented in a 24-page complaint filed in a federal lawsuit alleging Michael Schiavo had forbidden medical professionals to provide his wife with any therapy or rehabilitation and had attempted to hasten her death while she was a patient at the Pinellas Park, Fla., hospice she has lived in since 2000.

After Terri Schiavo's collapse in 1990 under disputed circumstances, Michael Schiavo won a malpractice lawsuit, promising to use the money for her therapy. Afterward, however, he requested a "do not resuscitate" order, refused therapy and barred stimulation and treatment for infections.

Michael Schiavo believes the collapse, during which oxygen temporarily was cut off to the brain, was the result of an eating disorder, but her parents suspect he tried to strangle her.

Iyer said in the FNC interview that when Terri Schiavo was having a urinary tract infection, Michael Schiavo "would be excited, thrilled, even hoping that she would die soon."

"What makes you say that?" Iyer was asked.

"He would blurt out 'When is she gonna die? When is that B-I-T-C-H gonna die? Hasn't she died yet?'"

A federal judge early this morning refused to order reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube after emergency intervention by Congress and President Bush.

The tube was removed Friday afternoon after Florida courts rejected a flurry of motions by Robert and Mary Schindler to keep their daughter alive.

In a 13-page ruling, U.S. District Judge James Whittemore of Tampa said the 41-year-old woman's parents had not established a "substantial likelihood of success" at trial on the merits of their arguments.

'Help me'

In her sworn affidavit, Iyer, who cared for Terri Schiavo from April 1995 until August of 1996, stated Terri used to talk to her as much as she could and frequently used what sounded like the word "pain." She also interpreted Terri's vocalizing at times as crying "help me."


Terri responding to her mother in video clip available on terrisfight.org

In contrast, the courts are operating on the finding of fact that Terri Schiavo is in a "persistant vegetative state" and does not intentionally respond to stimuli. The Schindlers insist that while Terri is severely handicapped, she recognizes them and interacts with laughter, crying, moans and attempts to form words.

Iyer says she was fired after notifying police about her suspicions.

While acknowledging she had no proof, the nurse said she suspects Michael Schiavo injected Terri, who normally has "very stable" blood sugar levels, with regular insulin to drive her into hypoglycemic shock during his visits.

"Terri would be trembling, crying hysterically and would be very pale and have cold sweats," Iyer wrote. "So I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low that it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading."

Schiavo repeatedly and strenuously has denied allegations of abuse. Felos described the accusations as "a bunch of garbage." He called caregivers' claims Terri spoke to them "a fabrication."

In the Fox News Channel interview today, Iyer said she saw needle marks under Terri Schiavo's breast and groin after Michael Schiavo had been left in the closed room with her. A used syringe was found in the trash.

Iyer said that when Michael Schiavo found out she and another nurse were feeding Terri liquids and liquified foods, he warned he would get them fired if they didn't stop.

These facts were not taken into consideration in the court cases, Iyer stated.

" ... I think a gag order was put on all confidence things Terri had done," Iyer said.

One of the Schindlers' legal roadblocks is that in the original hearings more than 10 years ago, they followed the advice of a lawyer who had them agree to stipulate that Terri was in a "persistant vegetative state."

Subsequently, they provided the court with "reams of medical evidence" indicating Terri could be rehabilitated, but the court would not consider it because of the stipulation, according to a spokesman, Gary McCullough.

"It was a huge error on the part of lawyers at the front end," he said.

Posted: March 22, 2005
1:30 p.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com"

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43427

Zygote
03-23-2005, 03:44 PM
this is the first time i'm heavily disagreeing with you.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I read recently that Terri has not lost her entire cerebral cortex. Who knows what she may be feeling or perceiving or even thinking, in perhaps a dreamlike way?


[/ QUOTE ]

Her cerebral cortex no longer functions. It doesn't have to fully deteriorate for her to no longer have a conscious self.

[ QUOTE ]
So who really knows what Terri is feeling or sensing or even thinking to some extent.

[/ QUOTE ]

The nuerologists that examined terri and testified.


[ QUOTE ]
Her parents say she responds and what they get back from Michael and others is, "prove it". "Duplicate it". I mean come on that is ridiculous. It took a heroic effort for my mother to open her eyes from a coma and look at me like that and there was no way she could have "duplicated it". However she was actively dying whereas Terri is persisting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone says she reacts. Noone denies this or cares. She has reflexes and her body can react to her environment and other things.

[ QUOTE ]
Terri's state doesn't mean Terri has no feeling, no consciousness, no thought.

[/ QUOTE ]
YES IT DOES!

[ QUOTE ]
Terri is not brain dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can have no concept of self and not be brain dead. I don't see why her being brain dead or not is relevant.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is Terri who should be given the benefit of the doubt--and I just can't bring myself to trust Michael Schiavo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Terri has been given the benefit of the doubt. Thats why there has been 7 years of litigation. She has been awarded her due process, what else do you want?

Who cares if you can trust micheal shiavo. His testimony is not soley what this case rests on. SEveral courts have heard all the testimonies and feel there is sufficient evidence to believe that she wanted to die in these circumstances. You, on the other hand, havent heard any court testimonies and, therefore, your opinion is irrelevant. Before the trials, there was conflicting testimony and opinions regarding whether or not terri wanted to die and whether or not she permanently lost her concept of self. Thats why it went to court. Thats why the court looked at the evidence. Seems pretty logical to me.

Felix_Nietsche
03-23-2005, 04:28 PM
I am sick of all the Terry Schiavo news.
I even had to to turn off Rush Limbaugh today and play poker im silence..... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

adanthar
03-23-2005, 05:04 PM
1)Please don't use WorldNetDaily as a reliable source.

2)Iyer is a quack. In fact, she's so loony that the reason the court didn't take her statements into account was because the Schindlers refused to use her as a witness at the trial. Among the things she said that weren't in this article was that Terri talked to her (yeah, actually talked) and her parents, telling them "Mommy" and "I love you", an allegation even the Schindlers didn't use.

Draw your own conclusions.

dr_venkman
03-23-2005, 06:10 PM
All I want to know is when did this become anyone's business other than Terry, her husband, and their doctor. Once a person is 18 or older they no longer are their parent's responsibility. Once a person marries their next of kin becomes their spouse. In matter of DNR orders, the next of kin decides. PERIOD.

I heard on the news today that people must fight this to give Terry hope. Terry doesn't have hope, she's dead from the neck up. You could stick a stilleto in her shin and she'd just give you that spaced out look.

Anyway... not a single one of us has any reason to stick our noses into this family's affairs. Especially not the courts or government. And that's all anyone has to know. They should announce it from a loudspeaker; "go home! this is none of your damn business!"


On a side note, starving someone to death is just gruesome. What the hell happened to America that murderers get a nice shot in the arm when they die and innocent women in pain get starved to death? Her mother keeps pleading not to let her daughter die. Well someone should explain to her that her daughter died 15 years ago, but her body just never got the memo.

Trainwreck
03-23-2005, 10:14 PM
I agree with you 110% well said!

Where are all the complaints about the method? It's more drama... News services live for drama, that is why this case is getting WAY WAY WAY too much time.

If this was a drunk driver comotose for 15 years who ran over 3 kids, we wouldn't even know about it.

Everyone in her family though, all have this SHOCK & AWE attitude, there isn't one who sees it this way? Cousin IT or the family dog? Give us somebody!

>TW<

TransientR
03-23-2005, 11:15 PM
There is a lot of evidence that dying of starvation and Dehydration under certain conditions is not an agonizing death.

From the LA Times:

Ceasing Food and Fluid Can Be Painless

By Karen Kaplan and Rosie Mestel, Times Staff Writers

After suffering through cancer, the middle-age woman decided her illness was too much to bear. Everything she ate, she painfully vomited back up. The prospect of surgery and a colostomy bag held no appeal.

And so, against the advice of her doctors, the patient decided to stop eating and drinking.

Over the next 40 days in 1993, Dr. Robert Sullivan of Duke University Medical Center observed her gradual decline, providing one of the most detailed clinical accounts of starvation and dehydration.

Instead of feeling pain, the patient experienced the characteristic sense of euphoria that accompanies a complete lack of food and water. She was cogent for weeks, chatting with her caregivers in the nursing home and writing letters to family and friends. As her organs finally failed, she slipped painlessly into a coma and died.

In the evolving saga of Terri Schiavo, the prospect of the 41-year-old Florida woman suffering a slow and painful death from starvation has been a galvanizing force.

But medical experts say going without food and water in the last days and weeks of life is as natural as death itself. The body is equipped with its own resources to adjust to death, they say.

In fact, eating and drinking during severe illness can be painful because of the demands it places on weakened organs.

"What my patients have told me over the last 25 years is that when they stop eating and drinking, there's nothing unpleasant about it -- in fact it can be quite blissful and euphoric," said Dr. Perry G. Fine, vice president of medical affairs at the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization in Arlington, Va. "It's a very smooth, graceful and elegant way to go."

Schiavo, who hasn't had any food or water since Friday, has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years that makes it impossible for her brain to recognize pain, doctors say.

"Her reflexes with respect to thirst or hunger are as broken as her ability to think thoughts or dream dreams or do anything a normal, healthy brain does," Fine said.

But even if her brain were functioning normally and she were aware of her condition, she would be comfortable, doctors say.

"The word `starve' is so emotionally loaded," Fine said. "People equate that with the hunger pains they feel or the thirst they feel after a long, hot day of hiking. To jump from that to a person who has an end-stage illness is a gigantic leap."

Contrary to the visceral fears of humans, death by starvation is the norm in nature -- and the body is prepared for it.

"The cessation of eating and drinking is the dominant way that mammals die," said Dr. Ira Byock, director of palliative medicine at Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center in New Hampshire. "It is a very gentle way that nature has provided for animals to leave this life."

In a 2003 study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, 102 hospice nurses caring for terminally ill patients who refused food and drink described their patients' final days as peaceful, with less pain and suffering than those who had elected to die through physician-assisted suicide.

The average rating given by the nurses for the patients' quality of death was an 8 on a scale where 9 represented a "very good death" and 0 was a "very bad death."

Patients deprived of food and water will die of dehydration rather than starvation, unless they succumb to their underlying illness first.

Without fluids, the body loses its ability to maintain the proper balance of potassium, sodium, calcium and other electrolytes in the bloodstream and inside cells.

The kidneys react to the fluid shortage by conserving as many bodily liquids as possible.

The brain, which relies on chemical signals to function properly, begins to deteriorate. So do the heart and other muscles, causing patients to feel tired and lethargic.

"Everything in the body is geared toward trying to maintain that normal balance," Fine said. "The body will do everything it can to maintain this balance if it's working well."

Meanwhile, the body begins mining its stores of fat and muscle to get the carbohydrates and proteins it needs to make energy.

"If you mine too many proteins in the heart, it gets unstable," Sullivan said. That can give rise to an irregular heartbeat, which can cause the patient to die of cardiac arrest. Or, if the muscles in the chest wall become weak, the patient can end up with pneumonia, he said.

Patients already weakened by disease begin feeling the impact after a few days, Fine said.

They eventually descend into a coma and finally death. The entire process usually takes one to two weeks, although a patient who is otherwise healthy -- such as Schiavo -- could hold on much longer.

Throughout the process, the body strives to suppress the normal feelings of pain associated with deprivation.

That pain of hunger is only felt by those who subsist on small amounts of food and water -- victims of famine, for instance, or concentration-camp inmates. They become ravenous as their bodies crave more fuel, said Sullivan, a senior fellow at Duke's Center for the Study of Aging.

After 24 hours without any food, "the body goes into a different mode and you're not hungry anymore," he said. "Total starvation is not painful or uncomfortable at all. When we were hunting rabbits millions of years ago, we had to have a back-up mode because we didn't always get a rabbit. You can't go hunting if you're hungry."

After a few days without food, chemicals known as ketones build up in the blood. These chemicals cause a mild euphoria that serves as a natural anesthetic.

The weakening brain releases a surge of feel-good hormones called endorphins.

Doctors also have a host of treatments to ameliorate acute problems, such as sprays and swabs to moisten dry mouths and creams to moisturize flaky skin. They can also administer morphine or other powerful painkillers.

Sullivan said doctors are likely to give some to Schiavo, although, "frankly, I think they might as well give it to each other, because it will probably be more painful for them than it will be for her."

Frank

masse75
03-24-2005, 12:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]


Yes, BUT you can't weigh Michael Schiavo's testimony (regarding Terri's wishes) entirely at face value. The law, or at least the courts, should recognize that his very possible major conflict of interest means that his word as to Terri's wishes should carry no more weight than the word of her parents.

So the letter of the law says his word should count more--but common sense says it shouldn't. If I were on one of those juries they wouldn't have slid this one past me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think the courts (numerous as they have been) have taken the 'ulterior motives' that people keep mentioning into account?

Both political parties love anything that galvanizes the base. This one may backfire for Repubs. The pro-feed crowd is already solidly Republican. They only stand to lose, especially libertarian/moderate voters who see this as pure government intrusion for political gain. Thank you, Dr. Frist, for your complete diagnosis of Terry's condition via video.

Doesn't help that the 'political interest' memo leaked, either.

Boris
03-24-2005, 01:47 AM
They should just shoot her and put her out of her misery. It seems inhumane to just pull the feeding tube and let her starve to death.

Cyrus
03-24-2005, 04:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I had to to turn off Rush Limbaugh today and play poker in silence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Extend this to the long term and poker-track it. You'll see a ton of difference.

ACPlayer
03-24-2005, 06:02 AM
Without WorldNetDaily and MEMRI m^6 would have nobody;'s opinions to parrot.

Stu Pidasso
03-24-2005, 07:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
aside from which, my understanding is taht without a cerebral cortex she is psychologically non-existent and,therefore, cannot be aware of the experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

She has a brain stem which means she feels pain and discomfort.

Stu

MMMMMM
03-24-2005, 08:49 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think the courts (numerous as they have been) have taken the 'ulterior motives' that people keep mentioning into account?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite possibly not sufficiently.

dr_venkman
03-24-2005, 11:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot of evidence that dying of starvation and Dehydration under certain conditions is not an agonizing death.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I understand this article correctly the arguement is that humans have been starving for millenium and evolution has provided some defenses against "pain" from going without water or food until the point of termination.

While I agree that euphoria is probably likely in a healthy body that has been accustomed to difficult enviornments, there are other factors here to consider; the length of time between cutting off food and water and the point of death which relates directly to emotional suffering of the immediate family. That is one factor. Another is the so called illusion of society that should give us the sense that with alternative methods of euthanasia "starvation" is just too drawn out and miserly. The suicide machine Dr. Kevorkian went to jail for inventing is a perfectly acceptable means of terminating a patient's life when there is clearly no hope. Once that decision has been reached, by the immediate family whom are legally responsible (M. Shiavo), then the machine should be applied quickly and without delay.

As 'President' Bush said, we should first and foremost be concerned with protecting life. However, protecting life should not trump a situation where life is either being tormented or life is incapable of pursuing liberty and happiness.

Life, liberty, and happiness. They all should apply as one concept. That's what becoming a civilized society was supposed to be about. Not preserving a body so that it can lie in a hospital bed for several more decades, completly without ability to establish any meaningful connection to the world around it.

Doctors should not only strive to protect life but protect what makes life worth living.

IMVHO.


PS:
Let me also offer a viewpoint that is probably reviled by many. Some say Michael Schiavo's motivations for terminating Terry are dubious. I say, it's still none of your business. T. Schiavo could have chosen to marry someone whom had better intentions. It's nobody's business but her, her spouse, and her physician. And that's good advice for anyone considering getting married.

MMMMMM
03-24-2005, 01:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]

PS:
Let me also offer a viewpoint that is probably reviled by many. Some say Michael Schiavo's motivations for terminating Terry are dubious. I say, it's still none of your business.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if he intended to murder her from the outset? After all he was the only one present when she had her initial heart attack that led to her present condition. At that time too he had already taken up living with the other woman if I recall correctly.

[ QUOTE ]
T. Schiavo could have chosen to marry someone whom had better intentions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah right; how many women end up married to abusive husbands? Is that always their fault?

[ QUOTE ]
It's nobody's business but her, her spouse, and her physician. And that's good advice for anyone considering getting married.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I've posted I don't think it is right for him to be fully legally considered her spouse, under all the circumstances.

slickpoppa
03-24-2005, 01:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
At that time too he had already taken up living with the other woman if I am recalling correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are recalling very incorrectly. He did not start living with the other woman until several years after she became a vegetable. Since you have been reading worldnetdaily.com, I guess I can blame you for being misinformed.

MMMMMM
03-24-2005, 02:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You are recalling very incorrectly. He did not start living with the other woman until several years after she became a vegetable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it was that he was seeing the other woman but hadn't yet begun living with her, not sure, anyway, that was a SIDE point.

He was the only one present when she had her initial problem that led to this whole mess, and there have been other pecuiliarities as well. Enough to throw some doubt on his intentions and reliability at least.


[ QUOTE ]
Since you have been reading worldnetdaily.com, I guess I can blame you for being misinformed.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, both CNN (Eason Jordan) and NYT (Jayson Blair) have been rocked with major scandals regarding bad reporting and other journalistic malfeasance. WorldNetDaily has not, to my knowledge, so maybe it is your view of which is the more reliable news outlet which is a bit skewed from reality. Or maybe not. I get my news from multiple sources including CNN. Anyway why pollute the thread with such a tangent.

dr_venkman
03-24-2005, 03:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What if he intended to murder her from the outset?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they've got evidence they'll prosecute.


[ QUOTE ]
Yeah right; how many women end up married to abusive husbands? Is that always their fault?

[/ QUOTE ]

False comparison. Abusive spouses and the decision to enforce the DNR or a request to be kept off life support are two very different things in the eyes of the world and the courts.

[ QUOTE ]
As I've posted I don't think it is right for him to be fully legally considered her spouse, under all the circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]

And those circumstance would be what? I can't think of a single reason why he isn't her spouse in the eyes of the law. Being in a persistently vegatative state does not a divorce make. And this is why spouses have the final control to enforce the DNR or request for no life support, because it's assumed that a spouse would know better than anyone the personal last wishes of the deceased or the injured, if not specifically documented.

MMMMMM
03-24-2005, 04:25 PM
Mr. Schiavo can no longer be prosecuted for attempted murder (back when this all started) because of statute of limitations.

Amazing that you would just TRUST Michael Sciavo on all this; why don't you read up on that aspect of thingbs a bit and check back.

I'm certainly not saying he is guilty of the worst, but it is crazy to extend to him blanket unqualified trust.

dr_venkman
03-24-2005, 04:29 PM
I don't trust him. I don't know him and I don't want to know him.

Who gets to decide if T is artificially kept alive? Him.


Life is tough.
Wear a helmet.

jaxmike
03-24-2005, 04:52 PM
its not artificial, its [censored] food and water.

dr_venkman
03-24-2005, 05:30 PM
Main Entry: ar·ti·fi·cial
Pronunciation: "är-t&-'fi-sh&l
Function: adjective

1 : humanly contrived often on a natural model


In this case, the act of eating and drinking has been replaced with forcing nourishment into the body of a person via a polymer tube inserted into the esophageal passage.

Hence, artificial.

jakethebake
03-24-2005, 05:51 PM
Meh. As far as i know, she's a piece of meat at this point. Why all the debate. If she keeps breathing, she doesn't know so doesn't care. If she stops breathing, she doesn't know so doesn't care. Either way, it's kinda sad but if she doesn't care why does anyone else?

adanthar
03-24-2005, 05:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it was that he was seeing the other woman but hadn't yet begun living with her, not sure, anyway, that was a SIDE point.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still wrong. He did not start seeing the other woman until the Schindlers asked him to. Yes, that's right; the parents and Michael stayed friends for years after the accident, they encouraged him to move on with his life after about three years and introduced him to prospective dates.

Also, the other woman you're talking about has accompanied Michael to the hospice and helped clean Terri, bathe her and care for her years before this case got to this point.

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, both CNN (Eason Jordan) and NYT (Jayson Blair) have been rocked with major scandals regarding bad reporting and other journalistic malfeasance. WorldNetDaily has not, to my knowledge

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because there's no journalistic integrity at WorldNetDaily to create a scandal over. You may as well say Pravda or the National Enquirer have never been implicated in a scandal, either. No, they haven't; much like WND, they make most of their news up. Quoting it just makes your argument weaker.

MMMMMM
03-24-2005, 10:17 PM
While WND is opinionated, I have not noticed any factual errors though undoubtedly there might be some I've missed (contrast that with CNN and NYT which got CAUGHT at what they were doing).

Have you any evidence of WND making facts up (as opposed to merely expressing opinion)?

The NYT certainly has made facts up--CBS, the Dan Rather debacle--nothing like that on WND as far as I know.

MMMMMM
03-24-2005, 10:19 PM
It's still in a very different class than respiration machines and the like.

MMMMMM
03-24-2005, 10:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Meh. As far as i know, she's a piece of meat at this point. Why all the debate. If she keeps breathing, she doesn't know so doesn't care. If she stops breathing, she doesn't know so doesn't care. Either way, it's kinda sad but if she doesn't care why does anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I'm not convinced she is fully unconscious--and neither are some doctors.

adanthar
03-24-2005, 11:30 PM
If you don't trust the mainstream media that much, don't read them. You can get your news off the sites Drudge links to, the AP wires, or any number of either left wing or right wing debate forums. I like the AP wires for their relative lack of bias so I look at sites with free links.

WorldNetDaily is not even a 'news source'. All of their news stories, as opposed to editorials, are offsite links. And yes, they make stuff up; go ahead and take a look at their 'intelligent design' links, for starters (100% complete BS from the first sentence onwards).

MMMMMM
03-24-2005, 11:57 PM
I get my news from alkl sources including Drudge links.

I'll check out your recommendation but I doubt WND actually manufactures facts (as contrasted with, say, Jayson Blair).

I agree they inject as lot of opinion but I think the intelligent reader can sift through that pretty easily. All I am interested in is the facts please.

TransientR
03-25-2005, 02:18 AM
I hope you have considered the possibility that if Terri is not in a vegetative state, she may be suffering more than if she was.

Frank

MMMMMM
03-25-2005, 02:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]

I hope you have considered the possibility that if Terri is not in a vegetative state, she may be suffering more than if she was.


[/ QUOTE ]Exactly so--which is another reason I think it is wrong for them to be doing this to her.