How to win MTTs: (or how not to be a fish)

[CardSharpCook]

I'm quite sure that I should quit posting here. It seems that every thread I start devolves into controversy, misuderstanding, and bad feelings. In my past five posts, I've been called a cheater, a XXXXing moron, a XXXXing idiot, an imature child who needs to learn to function as an adult (I liked that one), an amatuer, and... well, nothing good anyway. <shrug> I doubt this post will end differently.

I've been reading the recent thread, "what seperates big MTT winners from smaller ones." And I can't help but thinking how you are all advised to be fish, and so many are drinking in this advise as if it were God's Nectar. Lemme tell you a little secret: Coin flips will not win you any tourneys. Going AI with TT and you know your opponent has AK isn't a "good thing". There was one poster in that thread who replied most sagely, "so you're saying that you'd rather play 52 tourneys with 2000 chips than 100 tourneys with 1000chips for the same amount in buy-ins? I'll take the 100 tourneys and 1000 chips." Right on, brother. Play poker, not the lotto. Oh by the way, do the math on this: every tourney has registration fees. If you are going to be flipping coins, you have to be able to cover the registration fees with your odds. That means, 10% fees, you have to be favored 55/45 for it be a push. Sure, sure, the advantage of playing this way is that once you win that first coin flip, the second doesn't knock you out, right? BullXXXX. Do you know why Vegas always wins? Sure, the games are all favor the casino, but they win because the have a functionally unlimited bankroll. They can withstand variance, YOU CAN NOT!!! There is no amount of chip lead that can help you withstand variance to the extent that you need it to. If you play in this style, you are playing the lotto. My brother has a saying, "the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math." Check your math, don't play the lotto.

Ok, so what's my answer? What's my secret? Alright, no one plays like I do. This is a fact. I'm not the best player and trying to emulate me will lead to a lot of trouble.... but I do know some things about tourney poker. First, it is not about getting all your chips in when you are ahead, it is about getting your opponent to put in more chips than he should when he is behind. PF AI is the most vulgar type of poker. I hate to engage in it, but sometimes you do have to be ugly to win. Play the flop. See some cards, play POKER!!!! Ok, putting in more chips than he should. Flop comes 3 to a flush. You have no flush cards, but you do have top pair. Based on Tony's previous play, you think it likely that he has broadway cards and so could easily be holding a nice flush draw. (true, he could also be holding a flush, but we must take risks). Tony's action leads you to believe that he does not have a made hand (whatever that action is for Tony and this board). You bet the pot. Why? If he calls he is getting 2:1 on his money, right? "But wait," you say, "he has a 35% chance of hitting his flush! That's good pot odds!!" No, friends, he has a 20% chance of hitting his flush, because we are going to play the next street the same way. We bet the pot again on the turn. Will he call believing (correctly, this time) that he is a 4:1 dog? He may, he may not, but if he does, we've gotten him to accept terrible odds. Why? Because there are no implied pot odds. If that flush card hits, we are done with the hand (unless our read on Tony is that he DOESN'T have the flush, and will fold to a certain style of bluff). Getting your opponent to accept terrible odds, odds that would make a bookie chortle with glee.

Getting your opponent to bet when he'd rather fold. "what?" you say, "if he's gonna fold, he'll fold." Well, yes, 90% of the time this is true, but some times and with some players, you can get them to bet a hand they have little interest in by using certain tactics. Never bet. Players do this to me all the time. I've got 37o in the BB and I'm dying for them to just bet so I can see the next hand, but then the don't and I start thinking bad thoughts like, "well, maybe I can BLUFF them out!!!" Believe me, I've lost so many chips this way and even lost some tourneys betting a hand I had eveery intention of folding after seeing the flop. Find players like me, do this to them.

Getting your opponent interested in a pot he is way behind in. For those of you who remember the 55 thread, this is a perfect example. For those of you who don't remember, it is better not to look it up. But here is the lesson: scary board, maybe you have a nice piece of it, maybe you only know that you've got a better hand than your opponent. Now what you have to do is play that hand like you are scared, ready and willing to fold. Sometimes that means acting strong, other times it means acting weak - depends on the opponent. But what you want is for your opponent to put more chips into the pot than he ever imagined he'd be willing to risk, given his holding.

Actually, that last point is my next point too. Getting your opponent to play for higher stakes with inferior holdings. Raise to a callable amount PF. We really don't mind seeing a flop with any holding that we willingly play. One of my favorite lines is, "he must have had 72o" I say this when someone goes all-in when there is some 50 chips in the pot. He probably had a playable hand, but the most he could get out of it was 50 chips. Well done sir. Now, how much are you getting out of your money hands? Can you play them in a way that will make them more profitable? I bet you can! Play softer, allow calls. This does not mean limp. NEVER LIMP. But if opponents are used to coming along for the ride when you triple the blinds twice an orbit, let them stay in it with there inferior holdings. Get more bets out of them. True, you are increasing the chance that they will catch one of their five outs, but so what?!? THOSE are the risks you should be taking!!! I love it when my opponent calls down my 1/2 pot bets (which I'll make whether I've paired or not). Really, it makes no sense for them to call down. I've either got a better hand or a better draw, and they have no idea which, but they are risking (or willing to risk) their entire stacks on a couple of ducks!!!! Now we must learn who these players are so we can check when we haven't paired.

Letting go. This is the most important thing. You kill your opponents implied odds by folding when his card shows up. On the other hand, you could be folding to a lot of bluffs, right? Wrong. You are folding to a couple bluffs, sure, but only a small percentage of players are capable of bluffing effectively when a danger card hits. Killing implied odds is the only way my style of poker works. We've kept them in at a price they shouldn't pay, but their miracle card has come. They check to us. hmmm. I think I'll check behind. Am I calling if I am out of position? Yes, no, maybe - depends on my holding, his holding, his style of play. I am not afraid of danger cards unless they help my opponent. If I put him on K3 and I hold AK, I'm still betting the river. How do I know if it helped my opponent? [censored], I don't know, I just trust my reads.

Early chip leads. Early chips leads mean so very little. It is insurance. If I get beat on one hand, I'll not be knocked out. Ok, that is valuable. But more often it simply means you'll be playing more hands in a manner that risks more chips. Well, that's ok, but playing a higher variance game does decrease the value of the chips you've won. I have a saying, "Early chip leads have a way of disappearing. You can open up your play and you will probably lose your lead. Or you can sit back and wait, and you WILL lose your lead. But, sometimes buying time is good enough." Which style should you choose? Depends on the table, depends on the cards, depends on how you feel.

Getting dragged into the money. I remember one party 350K tourney in which I was knocked down to 390 chips (through absolute idiocy (on my part - my opponents are never idiots (that isn't sarcasim))) with 2100 players remaining. I never again had more chips than I started with (2500), but I finished in the top 500. How? Patience. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, push, wait, wait, wait...10BB-6BB, I'm perfectly happy folding AJo PF when another player raises. 6BB-4BB, still folding AJo depending on raiser, but now I am stealing with Q9o in the hijack seat. I'm really opening up with 6-4BB. 4BB>, accepting any offer of a probable coin flip, and offering coin flips to any that will take.

But see, none of this matters if you don't know how to play the final table. I have played 1000s of SNGs, and I suggest you do the same (I'm sure many of you have). And you got to play these so aggresively. Raises, re-raises, steals with 37o, etc, etc. No one wants to bust out at this point and they are folding far more than they should. Correction, they are folding as they should, and as I would if I were in their shoes. Well, I do playback a lot more than they do. There is a culinary rule called FIFO, First In, First Out. It has to do with stock rotation, but the words apply to poker. Either you are First In, or you get the XXXX out of there. And you SHOULD!!!! and so should they, but they don't always, but that is ok too. I can't tell you all you need to know about final tables. But PLEASE play SNGs before you play MTTs.

Ok, That is basic tourney theory according to CSC. Now, lets hear what a rank amatuerish moron I am. Come on, bring it on.

CSC

[MSUcougar]

Nice post. I like that you took the time to write something like this. Different perspectives are always helpful...

As for stopping posting on the forum, I think you should maybe try to have a little bit thicker skin. If you post something even slightly controversial, of course you're gonna run into people that disagree with you. As my dad would say, pick the fish and leave the bone.

[woodguy]

I know that you won a $350K Sunday at Stars, I am curious to what other tourneys you have won as you speak like you have won many.

Not flaming, just curious.

Regards,
Woodguy

[TheTimeIsUp]

Not a bad post. Would you explain more thoroughly how SNGs can relate to MTTs?

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a bad post. Would you explain more thoroughly how SNGs can relate to MTTs?

[/ QUOTE ]

betting/raising/calling/folding with high blinds and bubble play, I guess

[TheTimeIsUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not a bad post. Would you explain more thoroughly how SNGs can relate to MTTs?

[/ QUOTE ]

betting/raising/calling/folding with high blinds and bubble play, I guess

[/ QUOTE ]

I played tons and tons and tons of SNGs, and I feel that it hurt my MTT game drasitcally due to the terribly high blinds and pushing with literally any 2.

[niwotyalpi]

Good Post.

[HoldingFolding]

Please do not stop posting. I often watch you play AND do well. I'm trying to improve my MTT game and your advice helps. Do you have a comment on this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1978202&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a bad post. Would you explain more thoroughly how SNGs can relate to MTTs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting to the final table is only useful if you know how to place first once you do.

Most pure MTT players don't have the short handed and HU skills they need to make it to first instead of, say, sixth. You pretty much have to get them from SNG's or get really lucky; they teach you a lot about bubble play, math needed to make a call or a push, folding equity, and aggression that you can't get without playing literally thousands of big multis.

It's much much easier to transition to a winning MTT player after beating SNG's for a long period of time.

[MLG]

adanthar I think your post is spot on when it comes to the final table. however, I think a lot of sit n go players have a very hard time in the middle stages of tournaments. there is really no point in a sit n go where the blinds are high and bubble considerations aren't in play, while those situations arise in mtts somewhat frequently.

[TheTimeIsUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not a bad post. Would you explain more thoroughly how SNGs can relate to MTTs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting to the final table is only useful if you know how to place first once you do.

Most pure MTT players don't have the short handed and HU skills they need to make it to first instead of, say, sixth. You pretty much have to get them from SNG's or get really lucky; they teach you a lot about bubble play, math needed to make a call or a push, folding equity, and aggression that you can't get without playing literally thousands of big multis.

It's much much easier to transition to a winning MTT player after beating SNG's for a long period of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to disagree. Usually when its short handed, the blinds are about 300/600, thats about 5k a peice. This is an all-in fest, rather deep in a MTT final table it is far from an all in fest.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not a bad post. Would you explain more thoroughly how SNGs can relate to MTTs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting to the final table is only useful if you know how to place first once you do.

Most pure MTT players don't have the short handed and HU skills they need to make it to first instead of, say, sixth. You pretty much have to get them from SNG's or get really lucky; they teach you a lot about bubble play, math needed to make a call or a push, folding equity, and aggression that you can't get without playing literally thousands of big multis.

It's much much easier to transition to a winning MTT player after beating SNG's for a long period of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to disagree. Usually when its short handed, the blinds are about 300/600, thats about 5k a peice. This is an all-in fest, rather deep in a MTT final table it is far from an all in fest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Time, you are correct to a degree. When I get to a final and find myself HU with an SNG player, I sigh. I know my odds have now been reduced to 60/40 (independant of stack size). The art of choosing the best all-in hand. However, being a 60/40 favorite HU in this situation comes from SNG experience. That's huge. However, there are also some SNG HU matches that are really spectacular. The kind that, you really don't care if you win, you were just honored to be a part of it. These are the ones that increase my advantage HU at the end of the MTT - and why I sigh when my odds are reduced to 60/40.

Adanthar really did have a wonderful post. I could only repeat what he said in saying why SNGs are so valuable.

CSC

A couple weeks ago, I had a 3:1 chip lead HU at the end of a 150 man MTT. It was Limit HE. I blew it. 3:1 in Limit and I blew it. Though I arrogantly believe in my ability and make claims like "I'm dissapointed when my odds are 3:2 HU", I am not a great player.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
I know that you won a $350K Sunday at Stars, I am curious to what other tourneys you have won as you speak like you have won many.

Not flaming, just curious.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you really so results oriented? Is that what this board is about? I've been open with my level of experience - for those of you who don't know, I've been playing poker for 13 months now, online for 7. Before that Sunday 350K, I had won only one other MTT, and that a 70-man tourney. Since then, I've won more since, but no major tourneys. I believe my 2nd biggest cash award in a tourney is $2200. You are welcome to dismiss what I write because of my inexperience. If I speak with conviction, it is because I believe what I say, not because I can point to any track record.

CSC

[Ulysses]

FWIW, I think you severely underestimate, especially as you get deeper in a tournament, the percentage of players that can exploit your "drag them along" strategy by giving themselves all manner of extra outs when playing against you.

That's not the only part of your strategy that I think is off the mark, but I think it's a pretty major flaw.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I think you severely underestimate, especially as you get deeper in a tournament, the percentage of players that can exploit your "drag them along" strategy by giving themselves all manner of extra outs when playing against you.

That's not the only part of your strategy that I think is off the mark, but I think it's a pretty major flaw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate?

Also, "FWIW" what does this mean? I'm not "with it" when it comes to computer lingo.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I think you severely underestimate, especially as you get deeper in a tournament, the percentage of players that can exploit your "drag them along" strategy by giving themselves all manner of extra outs when playing against you.

That's not the only part of your strategy that I think is off the mark, but I think it's a pretty major flaw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate?

Also, "FWIW" what does this mean? I'm not "with it" when it comes to computer lingo.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW - "For What it's Worth".

[minwoo]

SNG's are ALL ABOUT BUBBLE PLAY. It is usually your bubble play that breaks or makes you. You can start out as the high stack when there are 5 ppl left and blinds are 50/100, but if you play it wrong, you can very well end in 3rd or even OTM. On Party SNGs ($33 tables)..the bubble play starts in about 30 min or so.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you really so results oriented? Is that what this board is about? I've been open with my level of experience - for those of you who don't know, I've been playing poker for 13 months now, online for 7. Before that Sunday 350K, I had won only one other MTT, and that a 70-man tourney. Since then, I've won more since, but no major tourneys. I believe my 2nd biggest cash award in a tourney is $2200. You are welcome to dismiss what I write because of my inexperience. If I speak with conviction, it is because I believe what I say, not because I can point to any track record.


[/ QUOTE ]

Easy, easy...like I said in my OP, I was just curious as you seemed to have an "I know what I'm talking about, you don't" tone to your post.

such as this: [ QUOTE ]
And I can't help but thinking how you are all advised to be fish, and so many are drinking in this advise as if it were God's Nectar. Lemme tell you a little secret: Coin flips will not win you any tourneys.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this:
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so what's my answer? What's my secret? Alright, no one plays like I do.

I do know some things about tourney poker. First, it is not about getting all your chips in when you are ahead,


[/ QUOTE ]

To fully digest your post, I needed to put it into context of your expeirience and track record as a MTT players.

Is this results orientated?
Yes.
When I choose to learn from others, I try to learn from those whose experience, success, and depth of knowledge suprpass my own.

This is not to say that I couldn't learn anything from those who do not meet this criteria, but who would you rather learn from in order to advance your golf game; someone you beat, or someone who beats you?

Regards,
Woodguy

[IRV]

Excellent post and more along the lines of how I like to play. I don't like taking coin flips early in the tourney unless I have to or am in good shape where it won't hurt my stack too much.

The other thread on pushing edges was good too, but would have never worked for me.

Very nice work!

[ZBTHorton]

I think this is a great post and definitely might lead some insight into the play of a tournament player who is new to the game and hasn't completely developed how they feel comfortable playing MTT's.

However; if you feel comfortable with a lot of chips and feel that your 'big chip stack' play is very good, I think the 'accumulator' theory a lot of the good MTT players here have is the way to go.

Simply put, you MUST make the final table in order to have a good cash in most MTT's. You need a chip stack to do that. In order to have a big chip stack, you've got to take some chances early on.

[hurlyburly]

As a low limit player, a few of your points really hit home with me:

[ QUOTE ]
First, it is not about getting all your chips in when you are ahead, it is about getting your opponent to put in more chips than he should when he is behind. PF AI is the most vulgar type of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't run into tables often enough that flat play poker at the sub $50 level, and end up a huge dog to the big chip stacks after the first hour without the deck just running over me. Gonna try just satelliting to the bigger buyins for a while to combat this.

[ QUOTE ]
Letting go. This is the most important thing. You kill your opponents implied odds by folding when his card shows up. On the other hand, you could be folding to a lot of bluffs, right? Wrong. You are folding to a couple bluffs, sure, but only a small percentage of players are capable of bluffing effectively when a danger card hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 100% accurate for me as well. Studying betting patterns in HH has helped me pull off better bluffs, but I still pay off too many misreads with a 2nd best hand. I know this hurts my middle game, where I'm too tight and refuse to release hands I've waited 3 rotations to get.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, how much are you getting out of your money hands? Can you play them in a way that will make them more profitable? I bet you can! Play softer, allow calls. This does not mean limp. NEVER LIMP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this one, just thought it deserved repeating.

Thanks for the post, and don't let being a cheating XXXXing moron or an imature XXXXing idiot child amatuer (pronounced am-a-CHEW-er) (did I miss any?) keep you from stating your opinions.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
adanthar I think your post is spot on when it comes to the final table. however, I think a lot of sit n go players have a very hard time in the middle stages of tournaments. there is really no point in a sit n go where the blinds are high and bubble considerations aren't in play, while those situations arise in mtts somewhat frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what big adjustments do you think are needed to move between these two situations (to clarify, I mean shortstacked relative to the blinds, bubble vs. no bubble)? The way I think of it right now is that the bubble is where $ EV plays can start looking substantially different from chip EV plays. Is this what you mean, or is there something else? I could imagine that you might mean that people play somewhat looser in shortstack scenarios that are still far from the bubble, for example, which I don't really have enough MTT experience to have a conclusive opinion on.

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, how much are you getting out of your money hands? Can you play them in a way that will make them more profitable? I bet you can! Play softer, allow calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a double edged sword? If you play softer to string them along when you have the goods you give something up when you completely whiff.

I like firing that potsizedish bet at the flop after my preflop raise whether I connected or not. Even if my preflop raise was a pure steal.

If I play soft with the goods and strong without them good players will pick up on this. I don't want to be read. I want to play 72o and AA exactly the same way. I don't want to give myself away with betting patterns.

There is too much to be gained from steals and firing second barrels that playing soft to lure them in would defeat.

[GtrHtr]

I have said in previous posts in the MTT forum that I am a SnG player who somewhat funds MTT play through SnG. I read this forum to try and improve my MTT skills. I am an example of MLG's weak in the middle rounds player and have yet to break the code. My issue is progressively building my stack throughout the middle hands to go ITM without limping over the line with a small stack. In the handful of "better" finishes I have had, I am consistantly finishing in 11th place - one seat away from being able to put my SnG skills into play. The one and only final table I have made thus far I a)knew (felt) I had an edge that CSC talks about and b) in many ways baffled the other players at the table. Unfortunately, I made a bonehead play and failed to make HU - where my confidence is even higher, even in SnG games.

Thanks for the post CSC, and thanks to MLG and the rest who have taken time to put ideas and results on the forum for guys like me to study. Again, thanks to MLG for taking the time to reply to my odd question in the past when he really doesn't have to - I'm a new guy to the forum, mostly post in the STT area, etc.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
adanthar I think your post is spot on when it comes to the final table. however, I think a lot of sit n go players have a very hard time in the middle stages of tournaments. there is really no point in a sit n go where the blinds are high and bubble considerations aren't in play, while those situations arise in mtts somewhat frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo

[Vetstadium]

I play tons of SNG's (my main poker playing) but also multi. I think the one think I have learned from SNG play is tight early. With this tactic by the break in almost every multi I have been in half the field is gone by first break. I usually am not among chip leaders at break (nor do I need to be). My only concern is that the blinds do not force me out. My SNG play has taught me enough to know when it is time to push(meaning blinds 100/200 I have 2500 chips I have NO Need to push out of postion with AJ....just not the time in my eyes etc). I do feel my multi game can improve but SNG play does help it. When I do make it to the final table then just like a SNG in my eyes and play it same way(to a degree yes varying chip sizes). When I first started playing poker I know it sounds so basic but took me awhile to realize this....who cares about avg chip count. It used to be bother me when how can I control what Joe Schmo has at table 75 I can only control what happens at my table.

[hurlyburly]

I wouldn't say that. Let's say you minraise UTG+1 with KK, get reraised, then showdown and double up. Then 2 rotations later make the same play UTG with 27o. You're hoping that everyone remembers what you did last time and you successfully steal. Then when you get AA, you can make a nice fat raise and someone might say "steal raise!" and try to shove you off.

Firing out when you miss is fine, but can you do that often enough to make it profitable? That's a 2/5 return with a 3xBB raise. And if you fold to a reraise once, how long until you try again? I'd call that a leak.

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
PF AI is the most vulgar type of poker. I hate to engage in it, but sometimes you do have to be ugly to win. Play the flop. See some cards, play POKER!!!! Ok, putting in more chips than he should. Flop comes 3 to a flush. You have no flush cards, but you do have top pair. Based on Tony's previous play, you think it likely that he has broadway cards and so could easily be holding a nice flush draw. (true, he could also be holding a flush, but we must take risks). Tony's action leads you to believe that he does not have a made hand (whatever that action is for Tony and this board). You bet the pot. Why? If he calls he is getting 2:1 on his money, right? "But wait," you say, "he has a 35% chance of hitting his flush! That's good pot odds!!" No, friends, he has a 20% chance of hitting his flush, because we are going to play the next street the same way. We bet the pot again on the turn. Will he call believing (correctly, this time) that he is a 4:1 dog? He may, he may not, but if he does, we've gotten him to accept terrible odds. Why? Because there are no implied pot odds. If that flush card hits, we are done with the hand (unless our read on Tony is that he DOESN'T have the flush, and will fold to a certain style of bluff). Getting your opponent to accept terrible odds, odds that would make a bookie chortle with glee.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. An example from my own experience, just this past Saturday, I was in an Absolute Poker freeroll, really just blowing off some steam after a long, drawn-out battle in another tourney. About the 3rd or 4th hand, I draw J/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in late position. So, I limp in, along with a few others. Flop comes down KQ3 rainbow (I think the K was a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif). Checked around to me, and I put in a half-pot bet. A caller or two, then someone in MP pushes!? Fold to me, and I think for a bit and call (he has T20 more than I do), everyone else folds.

At this point, the hands are turned up, and I see my opponent holding K/images/graemlins/club.gifJ/images/graemlins/club.gif. I catch a 9 on the turn, and MP proceeds to call me a fool and type lots of lines which have words that are asterisked out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif River was a blank, and MP is left with his T20, still swearing a blue streak (if only I could read what he was actually typing), and got knocked out when he went all-in on the next hand.

Basically, when he pushed, my first thought was, This is a freeroll, and I've seen lots of screwy play in these things before. Without knowing how solid he is, I would say that there is at least a 50% chance that he's either on a weak pair or draw, or even a stone cold bluff. Combine that with my 35% to hit the OESD I'm holding, and I'm liking my chances. I'll call. I was actually somewhat surprised to see that he actually had a K and a decent kicker. If he'd bet the pot, I would have respected his bet more, and almost certainly folded. But by pushing at that point, he made me think he was trying to steal the pot and didn't really want a call, and as it turned out, he didn't (at least after the 9 fell). /images/graemlins/smile.gif I was still accepting iffy pot odds and taking a big risk, but because I was all-in, I couldn't be knocked out of the pot before the showdown.

-Mike

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
Firing out when you miss is fine, but can you do that often enough to make it profitable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. Sometimes you just wanna give up or peel off a freebie, all depends on the tendancies of the initial caller. But much more often than not firing out wins it right then and there.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

If he'd bet the pot, I would have respected his bet more, and almost certainly folded. But by pushing at that point, he made me think he was trying to steal the pot and didn't really want a call, and as it turned out, he didn't (at least after the 9 fell). /images/graemlins/smile.gif I was still accepting iffy pot odds and taking a big risk, but because I was all-in, I couldn't be knocked out of the pot before the showdown.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your point here. Seems like your opponent played this perfectly, getting your whole stack in while he was a 2:1 favorite.

[goodFlop]

I absolutely agree that in MTT, chips are accumulated post-flop getting opponents to put chips in to draw at the wrong price, etc... However, where to draw the line: to risk getting outdrawn by (almost) pricing them in, or win a pot right there by betting large with scary draw board What are the factors to consider (in early level, worth the risk ?, etc...)

SPECIFIC EXAMPLE (my own experience):
*early level* of blinds (2nd level I think) in MTT, against two opponents BB and UTG, and UTG loves to draw with all kinds of garbage; 10/20 blinds, I'm in LP with JTo, stack 1200 and raise to 65, get those two callers. Pot size (205)

FLOP comes JT8 rainbow. BB bets (smallish) 40, UTG calls (pot=285)
Even with straight possibility, since BB,UTG are presumably drawing to straights (or have one pair), I don't want to push them out, at this stage. I raise to 135, expecting atleast one call. Get one call (pot=510).

TURN comes something like (JT8)K with two clubs (I don't have the flush draw). UTG checks.

Im' sure UTG is still drawing to a straight or two pair or flush, and I have him beat still with two pair. I have 1000 left.

The QUESTION HERE IS: do I just take the large pot (510) down right now by going all in (pushing 1000), not risking getting out drawn to win a sizeable pot, or make a healthy bet again. If the latter, how much to bet (not too large in case he draws me out?).

Relatedly, if some parameters of the situation changed, how would your answer change. (e.g. if my stack size was a little larger by the turn, say 1400)

thanks, I'm a relative MTT newbie trying to learn the ropes of MTT strategy ..

[Iconoclastic]

I had a similar situation today:

Early in a Low buyin MTT filled with calling stations. Limped with TT preflop. Flop is KdTd9h. Checked to me, I bet the Pot. One caller, Turn pot is around 300, with me and the Villain at around 1350 chips.

Turn is a blank. There is no amount of chips I could possibly bet to make the Villain make a mistake. Considering that the final pot Villain could win from me would have to be less than 1500 chips, there's no way that I would fold to a 300 chip bet into a pot of 900 chips (assuming I bet the pot on the Turn) against a calling station. But if I bet less than pot, I'll be giving him pot odds still. If I overbet the pot, I'll be pot committing myself to the point where I'd have to Push, which means a fold from Villain.

I think the problem is really reverse implied odds. I ended up betting about 200 chips and the River came a 9. Villain pushed, and I folded. Probably had a J. I ended up with a still healthy stack to continue with.

[DireWolf]

dont you have a full house?

[chet]

[ QUOTE ]
I had a similar situation today:

Early in a Low buyin MTT filled with calling stations. Limped with TT preflop. Flop is KdTd9h. Checked to me, I bet the Pot. One caller, Turn pot is around 300, with me and the Villain at around 1350 chips.

Turn is a blank. There is no amount of chips I could possibly bet to make the Villain make a mistake. Considering that the final pot Villain could win from me would have to be less than 1500 chips, there's no way that I would fold to a 300 chip bet into a pot of 900 chips (assuming I bet the pot on the Turn) against a calling station. But if I bet less than pot, I'll be giving him pot odds still. If I overbet the pot, I'll be pot committing myself to the point where I'd have to Push, which means a fold from Villain.

I think the problem is really reverse implied odds. I ended up betting about 200 chips and the River came a 9. Villain pushed, and I folded. Probably had a J. I ended up with a still healthy stack to continue with.

[/ QUOTE ]


So you folded the 2nd nut full house, and your read on him was that he had a J?

[Shibby]

I'm sure he meant to say that the river came a Queen.

[HoldingFolding]

That is so ****ing hilarious /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif I just spat a mouthful of coffee all over my monitor. Don't do it again /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[DireWolf]

what was wrong with that

[PukaPlaya]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure he meant to say that the river came a Queen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's hope so!!

Otherwise he is probably thinking about changing his username...

[HatesLosing]

CSC... I play very much like you describe (not exactly) and have done very well in the past year.

I too do not understand the "slider" approach, where people just slide all their chips in with any hand that has a chance to hold up. I'm sure it works for some people, but I've tried both approaches and one closer to your style has produced better results for me.

Perhaps it's because the "slider" knows little or nothing about his opponents. I keep intricately detailed notes and statistics on each opponent I face and data mine them when online as much as possible and try to learn what hands they will and won't play in which manners in different scenarios. Why should I take a 55-45 bet for all my chips when I darn well KNOW that I will be in a 60-40, 67-33, 70-30, or 80-20 scenario for all my chips sometime soon???? It's insane.

I can build my stack without ever risking all my chips too. We're all wrong on reads sometimes, but when you push them all in you don't have a chance to say "Oops.. maybe I was wrong about this one"

[PktAcesSoWht]

I enjoyed your post, and wish that there were many more in this same vane. Well, done.

[Iconoclastic]

[ QUOTE ]
I had a similar situation today:

Early in a Low buyin MTT filled with calling stations. Limped with TT preflop. Flop is KdTd9h. Checked to me, I bet the Pot. One caller, Turn pot is around 300, with me and the Villain at around 1350 chips.

Turn is a blank. There is no amount of chips I could possibly bet to make the Villain make a mistake. Considering that the final pot Villain could win from me would have to be less than 1500 chips, there's no way that I would fold to a 300 chip bet into a pot of 900 chips (assuming I bet the pot on the Turn) against a calling station. But if I bet less than pot, I'll be giving him pot odds still. If I overbet the pot, I'll be pot committing myself to the point where I'd have to Push, which means a fold from Villain.

I think the problem is really reverse implied odds. I ended up betting about 200 chips and the River came a 9. Villain pushed, and I folded. Probably had a J. I ended up with a still healthy stack to continue with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops /images/graemlins/blush.gif River was a Q. It won't let me edit it anymore now. But it wasn't a 9 and I did not fold a Full House!

[Ace_Ren]

Don't get me wrong, I like what you're saying. I hate the slider (all-in) approach to MTTs, but I've been having issues trying to play in a similar style to what you recommend.

While trying to play a style similar to yours, I seem to be faced with the same problem a whole lot... the problem is that the opponents are constantly going all-in.

I'm playing tight early on, which usually means that someone at my table has at least 3x my chips before the blinds go from 10/20 to 15/30. So I finally get a good hand, which in this case will be A/Q (not great, but very playable). I make a nice raise from MP. What happens next? The big stack in late position goes all-in. Then one of the blinds goes all-in after him.

Do I call? Of course not. One person, I'd consider it... two? Forget it. And usually what ends up happening is one of em will turn over a mid pocket pair and the other will turn over A and a rag. So I lose a decent chunk of my stack while two idiots flip the coin or go 70-30 in some cases, but either way, I'm taking a hit. Had I gone in, I have better than a 33% chance of winning, so pot odds are right, but greater than 50% of the time I'm out.

So if I call: pot odds are right, but I'm in a bad situation.
If I fold: I lose my raise, which might be a significant portion of my stack. (in the above example, no, but often it is)

And there's the problem I have playing like you suggest. It's not that I want to go all-in preflop, but I'm constantly being forced to make a stand or give up chips. If I wait for AA/KK/QQ to make a stand, I'm giving away a ton of chips to blinds and my raises that are re-raised to the point that a double up might not matter. And the other possibility is that I may get beat anyways and be out of the tourney.

From my experience (I am still rather inexperienced), having that big stack is important. It's not important so that you can bully people and it's not important so that you can try to suck out or get into coin flip situations.

Having a big stack is important so that you can take bad beats because everyone is going to take bad beats in a tourney. At least for my play, I'd say it's around 95% of the time that my money goes in when I have the better hand, but end up getting knocked out by someone with a big stack and crappy cards that suck out against me.



So how do you deal with this problem? Do you just shy away from all the sliders and hope that someone actually wants to play poker with you? And if nobody wants to play poker (or 1 or 2 people aren't letting them), what do you do to counter this problem?