AA --Too Aggressive?

[gaming_mouse]

Does anyone see a better line here or a place where I should have layed down?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (16.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

[einbert]

If you're confident MP1 will bet the turn if checked to I think this is a good spot to wait until the turn to raise. A threebet on the turn means a whole lot more so you could fold to it.

I think you have to call the river, but I could be wrong.

What do you think of that?

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]


I think you have to call the river, but I could be wrong.

What do you think of that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think given the size of the pot and the way I played it that yes, I have to call the river.

OTOH, it is pretty clear that I'm beat.

[einbert]

What do you think of waiting until the turn to raise?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I think given the size of the pot and the way I played it that yes, I have to call the river.

OTOH, it is pretty clear that I'm beat.

[/ QUOTE ]


What?

[pokerkai]

Definitely not too agressive.

I call the river expecting to see Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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I think given the size of the pot and the way I played it that yes, I have to call the river.

OTOH, it is pretty clear that I'm beat.


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What?

[/ QUOTE ]

diamond frush for sure.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think given the size of the pot and the way I played it that yes, I have to call the river.

OTOH, it is pretty clear that I'm beat.

[/ QUOTE ]


What?

[/ QUOTE ]

What does your "what" refer to? You don't think I am beat here the majority of the time? I'm not saying I don't have odds to call the river, but I am surely a big dog.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
What does your "what" refer to? You don't think I am beat here the majority of the time? I'm not saying I don't have odds to call the river, but I am surely a big dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say it is clear that you are beat, but that you have to call. I say "what" in an incredulous tone.

SB has a diamond flush, probably with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Fold.

I think that the rest of the hand is fine.

[private joker]

Without reads to the contrary, a flop cap and a turn check-call scream flush draw. I'd probably call the flop raise and raise the turn. But the SB might 3-bet behind me and MP1 could cap. Either way, I think you're in second place at best. I think SB hit a flush on the river and MP has either 2 pair or TPGK like KQ. When he calls the river that means he didn't miss a draw, so he's got a made hand. This is a big pot, but it might be a tough and correct laydown on the river. (Not that I'd do it. For one bet closing the action, I'd call too).

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does your "what" refer to? You don't think I am beat here the majority of the time? I'm not saying I don't have odds to call the river, but I am surely a big dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say it is clear that you are beat, but that you have to call. I say "what" in an incredulous tone.

SB has a diamond flush, probably with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Fold.

I think that the rest of the hand is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]



I think this situation is pretty similar.

http://tinyurl.com/4rnxh

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this situation is pretty similar.

http://tinyurl.com/4rnxh

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really different.

[gaming_mouse]

How come? Wasn't it just as "obvious" there that someone had a K?

Btw, why is that fukking url not working?

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Without reads to the contrary, a flop cap and a turn check-call scream flush draw. I'd probably call the flop raise and raise the turn. But the SB might 3-bet behind me and MP1 could cap. Either way, I think you're in second place at best. I think SB hit a flush on the river and MP has either 2 pair or TPGK like KQ. When he calls the river that means he didn't miss a draw, so he's got a made hand. This is a big pot, but it might be a tough and correct laydown on the river. (Not that I'd do it. For one bet closing the action, I'd call too).

[/ QUOTE ]

joker,

I had the exact same reads as you, and they turned out to be right, which made me even agrier that I hadn't folded the turn.

I'm really on the fence about wheather this call is correct or not.

[aas]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone see a better line here or a place where I should have layed down?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (16.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your play from beginning to end. I don't wait till the turn to raise here because of the flush draw. I call the river because of the size of the pot although most of the time this is a lost pot. You defenitely win this much more than one time out of 18, so call.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't it just as "obvious" there that someone had a K?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't wait till the turn to raise here because of the flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly why waiting until the turn to raise might be correct--because it charges the flush draw more while we have a bigger edge. Also because someone likely has a K and will bet it again on the turn (hopefully MP1).

I'd really like to hear more thoughts on waiting until the turn or not.

[ErrantNight]

i'm pretty certain you can't fold to that river, even overcalling, but it looks an awful, awful lot like sb' flush came in.

[ErrantNight]

i assume you mean folded the river. since open folding closing the action on the turn would be kinda st00pid.

[aas]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't wait till the turn to raise here because of the flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly why waiting until the turn to raise might be correct--because it charges the flush draw more while we have a bigger edge. Also because someone likely has a K and will bet it again on the turn (hopefully MP1).

I'd really like to hear more thoughts on waiting until the turn or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you raise when the diamond comes on the turn, or do you call down?

Forget about charging when the pot is getting so big. IF the third flush card comes, your raise will open you to a three bet. You'll have to decide if you need to fold. Furthermore, you'll have the single diamond holders chase you as well.

I would just get my money in on the flop when I am likely to have the best hand but the board is drawy(a word?).

[Shillx]

I don't wait till the turn to raise here because of the flush draw.

Meh this is such a silly notion. The odds against a flush draw out there are almost 6:1. This is a wasted worry.

Brad

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't wait till the turn to raise here because of the flush draw.

Meh this is such a silly notion. The odds against a flush draw out there are almost 6:1. This is a wasted worry.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Brad, what do you think of the river call?

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't wait till the turn to raise here because of the flush draw.

Meh this is such a silly notion. The odds against a flush draw out there are almost 6:1. This is a wasted worry.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Brad, what do you think of the river call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno really. SB's flop cap and turn check/call means that he has a draw. The problem is that he might just have QJ for a straight draw. There are 15 combos of that hand (not counting QJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif). There are 55 ways that he could have flopped a flush draw in this hand, so you should you are getting a pretty nice overlay if he will fire off a bluff with QJ when the flush draw comes in. The problem is that he will probably give up with a busted straight draw on the river and check/fold most of the time. So I think it is close here, and that it really depends more on a read then anything else. I don't think that anyone can blame you for calling because a) it is so hard to lay it down in a huge pot and b) it would be correct to call here against certain opponents.

Brad

[nef]

Another reason to wait until the turn is that there aren't any players behind him left to act. In the posted hand he had the oppurtunity to call 2 cold on the flop and then raise a bettor on his right for a double bet. This is fine.

In reality it appears that the SB would have 3-bet it, and at that point when it comes back to me I would 4-bet it. If, however SB does not reraise then I would raise a non diamond, non king turn.

[nef]

Where does this 6:1 come from? Random hands for opponents? When the action goes bet, call, raise, into a preflop raiser on a two flush board I imagine bayes theorem comes into play and the probabilities of flush draws being out increases. The fact that the player suspects a flush draw is important to the play of the hand.

[sthief09]

nice hand. you aint folding that river for 21-1. 4-1, sure. 21-1, no

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
nice hand. you aint folding that river for 21-1. 4-1, sure. 21-1, no

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, good.

are you sure I didn't overplay the flop?

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nice hand. you aint folding that river for 21-1. 4-1, sure. 21-1, no

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, good.

are you sure I didn't overplay the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think you did. bet + raise could be a lot of things on this board, even considering that they're doing it with the PFR still to act.

[ErrantNight]

if you knew for a fact that he was on a flush draw this would still be the correct way to play it.

[jason_t]

Results?

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Results?

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually posted earlier, in response to joker's thread.

It was exactly what I thought:

MP1 has KT for 2 pair.

SB has a flush.