Suited connector out of position

[Ghazban]

Button and MP3 have both been at the table for only a short while and have not done anything out of line in that time. I didn't have stats on either of them in PT either.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($180.8)
BB ($198.7)
UTG ($310)
UTG+1 ($576.15)
UTG+2 ($510.6)
MP1 ($227.35)
MP2 ($199.75)
MP3 ($167)
CO ($200)
Button ($179.85)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $1. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, MP3 calls $2, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $6</font>, Hero (poster) calls $5, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $4, CO calls $4.

Because button raised so little, I figured everybody who limped would call if I called (maybe the BB too) and I'll get pretty decent odds to see the flop. (I expect people will tell me to fold here but I stand by my call)

Flop: ($26) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, MP3 calls $20, CO folds, Button calls $20.

Pretty good flop-- pair plus a flush draw for up to 14 outs. Pushing would be great but that would be a massive overbet that only gets called by a set (I expect) so I bet out hoping to get raised by a big ace and then I can come over the top and maybe get him to fold something like AK/AQ. Unfortunately, I got two callers and no raise.

Turn: ($86) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $25</font>, Hero calls $25, MP3 calls $25.

I didn't hit anything so my plan was to check/fold to a big bet (I suspected MP3 might be slowplaying a set) or check/call something that gives me odds to draw. $25 is nice and cheap, so I call.

River: ($161) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero bets $129.80 (All-In)

Hey, I got there, whaddya know? I hope MP3 wasn't also on a diamond draw but, if so, oh well. I contemplated a check/raise but figured the flush card would kill any action from two pair/set. Then I thought about a smaller value bet that I could get away from if MP3 raised. Then I realized that sucks as I'd played the hand under the assumption that a diamond would make my hand a winner so folding when one hits would be silly. So I pushed, hoping one or both of my opponents would think I was just trying to buy it with the scare card hitting.

Thoughts?

[xorbie]

This really depends on the table. The move is a bit transparent, but if you think that either (a) they will not understand it and call anyway or (b) they will see it as a bluff then your move is good.

[mgsimpleton]

I much prefer a river check raise here... if he goes all in you can fold because he likely has AA... unless he's terrible and you think he would go all in with AK in which case well that's a decision you have to make. Anyway I think a check raise on the flop would get AQ or maybe even AK to fold, and the drawer would obviously have to get out too. But you got lucky in him betting so damned little on the turn that you had odds to call. Hope someone had 9 10 instead of a higher flush draw.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
I much prefer a river check raise here... if he goes all in you can fold because he likely has AA... unless he's terrible and you think he would go all in with AK in which case well that's a decision you have to make. Anyway I think a check raise on the flop would get AQ or maybe even AK to fold, and the drawer would obviously have to get out too. But you got lucky in him betting so damned little on the turn that you had odds to call. Hope someone had 9 10 instead of a higher flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be fine by me if he had AA-- flushes are much better than sets and sets are pretty hard to lay down. I think you must've misread the board (there's no pair).

The thing I don't like about checkraising the flop is that I want to be all-in on the flop and, assuming he bets the pot (which may or may not be the case), I'd be overbetting the pot to check/raise allin. Check/raising less than allin puts me in a horrible spot when the turn bricks as I don't have enough left to force anyone else out but, if I push, I'm putting my money in with the worst of it. If I lead out, get raised, then push, I think the bets are more in line with the size of the pot.

Anyway, on the river MP3 folds and button calls fairly quickly with AKo and MHIG. I think he butchered every single decision he was faced with (raised too small preflop relative to the pot, just called the flop bet, bet too small on the turn, then called on the river). He stuck around at the table sitting out with no money before eventually leaving a couple orbits afterwards (much to my dismay).

Part of the reason I posted this was because I was thinking about the leak I talked about in that other thread and found myself in the opposite position (being the drawing hand who hits on the river). I figured if calling too much was a leak of mine, maybe button would have it too and wouldn't be able to lay down to a big bet when the scare card hits.

[Xyeej]

Awesome thought process. THe line taken was probably best.

Flop bet is good, as it fits nicely with the flow of the hand. If he were to raise, he would be faced with the dilemma that you would've faced if you went for the c/r. An overbet by him would be out of place, so he may just minraise/pot it. This opens you up for the push, as I always like to be the aggressor in the hands I play.

Turn line was standard.

I play the river the same. A value bet here would be maybe $75, and both villains have ~$120-140 left, so I think the push was best. MP3 could easily be in with a weak jack and valuecalled(lol, is that a term?) the turn. The river overbet challenges the ego of many into a mini-pissing match thinking you are stealing. I think you will receive a call from someone who just doesn't believe enough to make the push best.

Well played.

[stankybank]

Other than your pf call, this line looks fine. Personally, I just value bet the river, possibly 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot just to extract some more money.

[RainFall]

How is the PF call bad?

[stankybank]

[ QUOTE ]
How is the PF call bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying it's bad because there's essentially only 1 limper, a CO who posted before the flop and checked his option, and then the button raises. Could be anything of course. Although I do enjoy playing suited connectors in NL games for obvious reasons, playing this hand OUT OF POSITION can get quite tricky.

Let's assume OP is correct and knew that he was going to be in a 4-way pot because I'd say it takes at least that many players for this type of hand to be profitable long term.

Next question: Is he willing to put his stack in on the flop?

[ginko]

I prefer betting the turn about $50-$80 if you have any fold equity. I don't like value betting with the non-nut draw OOP. The only hands calling you are AJ/set. AJ is possible, set is unlikely.

If opponents have a set, you are screwed either way. Your flush outs are tainted, and your 2pair/trips will only make 2nd best hand.

Also, I dislike your river bet. You think they will call a $130 river bet without the flush themselves? I guess is depends on how good your opponents are..

PF poor call imo. And if you wanted to put it allin the middle, you could checkraise or make a small bet and reraise his raise. Or checkraise the turn.

IMHO

[fimbulwinter]

honestly, preflop call is a little thin- you have worst relative position and worst absolute position, two things that don't bode well for a SC

I really like the lead on the flop as you have a great plan against a raise. think it's the best way unless you have a totally maniacal table image (maybe this is just a problem i have from time to time, then i think playing straightforward is probably better, like if you know they won't lay down A4o to you or whatever.

turn good

river i like a value bet here more than a push since you're pushing into two players and so won't get called unless someone has something like twopair, TPTK or better. also, i think that you're likely to get $60 called in two places but you're probably not likely to get this insta-push called unless the guy sucks or he has something like AJ. it also might wake up button behind MP3 allowing you to snag them both.

also you can make the metagame argument which probably isn't valid in this case but FWIW live i'd value bet also because i'd like my river bluffs to be 1/2 pot as well.

fim

[istewart]

I think this is quite obviously not a fold preflop, given the flop that Hero got.

[stankybank]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is quite obviously not a fold preflop, given the flop that Hero got.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm not as psychic and able to predict flops as well as you are. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
river i like a value bet here more than a push since you're pushing into two players and so won't get called unless someone has something like twopair, TPTK or better. also, i think that you're likely to get $60 called in two places but you're probably not likely to get this insta-push called unless the guy sucks or he has something like AJ. it also might wake up button behind MP3 allowing you to snag them both.

also you can make the metagame argument which probably isn't valid in this case but FWIW live i'd value bet also because i'd like my river bluffs to be 1/2 pot as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't a smaller river bet just scream 'flush'? As it was, my all-in was only ~3/4pot and I find people are more likely to look you up with a big bet than a small one (in general, that is-- if I had a better read on the opponents, I might've played the river differently). You have a good point about MP3 also calling if I bet smaller-- I hadn't thought about that. Had the river been an 8 or 7, I think I would've gone for the checkraise all-in as I believe my hand is good but TPTK looks good enough to value bet for the original raiser as he has no reason to believe a 7 or 8 would help me (of course, the 7 could've made my hand a loser to a straight).