JTo Big Loser SH?

[Poker Cat]

I'm a consistent winner at the 5-10 6-max.
After 40,000 hands, my win rate averages 2.5 BB/100.

Clearly my game still needs improvement, as there are some (non-blind) starting hands in the red in PT.

The biggest loser? Amazingly, it's JTo. By far.
In 385 plays, it's cost me $1430.50, or .37 BB. I've lost in every position, even the blinds. In smaller samples, it's definitely possible to get some strange results, but with this much info something is clearly wrong. But what?

I've reviewed several games in various situations, and can't find anything amiss. I'm not, for instance, consistently losing to pairs of jacks or tens with better kickers. JTo is not a premium hand, but as a group 5 start it's playable in most positions even in a ring game. How can it be such a loser here?

My only thought so far is that it doesn't do well in heads up matches where bluffing is common, because I can't defend (call) with a jack high.

Any thoughts?

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]
it's playable in most positions even in a ring game.

[/ QUOTE ]

No

[djoyce003]

Yeah i noticed it was one of mine as well, I quit playing it unless in the blinds. And no, it is not playable at all in a ring game unless its folded to you on the button and you are stealing, and then it's probaby marginal unless the blinds are tight.

[PassiveCaller]

You're going to have be way more specific in how you are playing this hand to get any useful information. Chances are you're playing JTo way too much still. It's not all that great of a hand in most positions and it's pretty awful in a ring game in most spots.

[Grisgra]

I know I was surprised when I figured it out /images/graemlins/smile.gif. At this point I might limp with it on the button after two or three passive and predictable limpers, or open-raise/steal with it from the button/CO, but that's about it. And I'm uncomfortable with the whole button-limping thing, too . . . I should probably raise with it, but it's such a lousy hand I'm really not thrilled about that, either.

[Paluka]

Anyone who is surprised that JTo is doing badly shorthanded has a lot more to worry about at poker than the fact that they are losing with JTo.

[fyodor]

In my evolution as a SH player I at first considered JTo a playable buy very mediocre hand. I then started reading HUSH and began to think less of it. I began mucking it everywhere except as a late steal or for just one more in the BB.

I then decided I was playing _way_ too tight in general and as part of my loosening (LAGing) it up strategy I found I had to play JTo in early positions. So I am now raising with it all over the place.

I have played 178,630 hands in my 5/10 SH database. JTo 1,656 times. vpip for JTo 35.39% and pfr is 14.13 (because most of the dbase is from my tight days) W$WSF 31.84%

I am down $22.50 total which after 1656 examples makes it a break even hand for me. I say any hand I can break even with is worth playing. The more hands I play the more action I get.

I am also happy to report that my CCPF with JTo is 0

[Poker Cat]

[ QUOTE ]
I found I had to play JTo in early positions. So I am now raising with it all over the place.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you raise with it UTG?

I'm new to the board, don't know all the TLA's & FLA's.
What's HUSH?

[PassiveCaller]

yes I'd say that's a big leak in logic...

[Poker Cat]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who is surprised that JTo is doing badly shorthanded has a lot more to worry about at poker than the fact that they are losing with JTo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your comment was not helpful in any way.

[PassiveCaller]

If you want to last around here you're going to have to not take comments like that so seriously. You could bark back like you did or try to think about why he said it and try to get more help. Otherwise you'll allienate some good posters and the useful assistance will quickly drop away.

[fyodor]

Yeah I raise it UTG

HUSH = Heads-up Short-handed = the forum you posted in

I don't know what TLA and FLA are

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise you'll allienate some good posters and the useful assistance will quickly drop away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. Certainly, there are some good posters that are also smartasses. But there are just as many smartass good players that are perceived as good posters, but because their posts are generally nothing but short & sarcastic, said posts would hardly be missed.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
What's HUSH?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're soaking in it.

[PassiveCaller]

Getting worked up over it is counterproductive either way. It's not like Paluka was bashing him he was stating something which was true, none the less a bit of a smart ass remark.

Advice can come in many forms.

[MAxx]

JTo is basically a very mediocre holding...... so play it as such.... which means not much... and selectively when you do.

[Girchuck]

As others had mentioned.
The secret to playing the JTo is to never limp with it unless completing the SB or defending the BB
Some raise it in any position, but a safer method is to only openraise it in CO or button as a steal.
The situations described above are the only times you should play this hand.

[Poker Cat]

[ QUOTE ]
Advice can come in many forms.

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer the helpful kind. :-)

[naphand]

First remove your blinkers.

[TheCleverOne]

[ QUOTE ]

The secret to playing the JTo is to never limp with it
.

[/ QUOTE ]

Side question, what hands should I limp in 6 max games? I have limped 1 time this year(called on button with 76s after everyone else had limped.) I assume you actually mean limping by limp and not calling bets?

[TheCleverOne]

Im winning 0.36 with JTo, but that includes both NL and fixed.

In max 6 fixed, I open raise it from every position and never cold call unless im on BB. Sometimes I three bet it from button or button-1 if im almost sure I will that way get headsup against huge fishes, I dont know how to find out if thats +ev play.. basicly this happens only against very loose-passive postflop players.

[jayheaps]

We need to remember that there is a big difference between a 6 handed game and a 2 or 3 handed one.

In a five or six-handed game, I will virtually never limp with the hand. I will raise if it is a weak tight table where there is a decent chance I will take down blinds or get heads up in position with the blinds.

If it is loose aggressive, easy easy fold.

[Girchuck]

Usually, one limps on the button, if the blinds are not maniacs and at least one other limper is present.
With low suited connectors, two or more limpers are best, one is iffy. If the limper is weak-tight, sometimes I limp with lower suited broadways, like KTs, QTs and lower suited aces. Often I limp with these if there are two or more limpers. Also, with two or more limpers, lower pocket pairs from the button are playable for one bet.
Thats about it.

[stigmata]

Going against the grain here:

I play this alot (48% VPIP). Only raising first in 16% of the time. It is marginally profitable for me 0.09 BB/hand.

I limp in position, or else raise for a blindsteal.