Lowering my limp-reraise standards [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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pokerjo22

03-22-2005, 12:34 PM

I was at a table last night with a couple of maniacs. Unfortunately I wasn't in a great position relative to them, and for a couple of back to back hands I played around with a lower than usual limp-reraise standard (AKo and QQ). My impression of the maniac was that he was more likely to cold call two bets than 3-bet, although he was almost certain to raise if there were a bunch of limpers. So I decided to limp-reraise and get a bunch of bets in preflop with hands that were likely to be favorite. It didn't work out so good, but I'm wondering if its long-run +EV and whether my thinking was off. Basically my question is if you have a good probability of a raise (with very low raising standards), but a low probability of a three-bet, should you be more inclined to limp-reraise?

Both UTGs are solid, Button is maniac (90/40/1.23), BB is somewhat loose-passive.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Heroine is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, Heroine calls, 3 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Heroine 3-bets, Button caps, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, Heroine calls.

Flop: (18.66 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Heroine raises, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (13.33 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Heroine raises, Button 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, Heroine calls.

River: (25.33 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG folds, Heroine checks, Button bets, BB calls, Heroine calls.

Final Pot: 28.33 BB

Maniac is now CO, Button is a second LAG at the table (70/20/1.1), BB is calling station (50/0/0.2). With BBs stats I should probably have folded this at the turn, but I don't think I'd realised how passive he was at this point.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Heroine is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, Heroine calls, 3 folds, CO calls, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, Heroine 3-bets, CO calls, Button caps, BB calls, Heroine calls, CO calls.

Flop: (16.66 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Heroine bets, CO folds, Button folds, BB calls.

Turn: (9.33 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Heroine calls.

River: (11.33 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Heroine calls.

Final Pot: 13.33 BB

philnewall

03-22-2005, 01:09 PM

Youve got to cap the turn on hand 1.

Other than that it looks OK on first inspection.

Barktooth

03-22-2005, 01:37 PM

I don't like this line, you're inviting a mutli-way pot which you really don't want with a hand like QQ or Ako. Then as you've made the pot quite big you're letting this larger number of limpers have the correct odds to chase their draws.

pokerjo22

03-22-2005, 01:59 PM

I wasn't really comfortable capping. Maniac was mainly a maniac preflop, not postflop, and I'd defined my hand by this point as a big hand. Once he three bet the turn I figured he had my beat.

Paluka

03-22-2005, 02:03 PM

I really like your preflop play on these hands. This is underused against bad players who love to raise preflop.

pokerjo22

03-22-2005, 02:04 PM

The way I saw it irrespective of whether I raised or limped they were coming in anyway, it was more a question of whether I could make them pay two bets or three bets for coming in with their crap.

Also, with the AKo hand, I already have two limpers. It isn't going to win unimproved, so I can treat it as a strong drawing hand and raise for value, right?

pokerjo22

03-22-2005, 02:17 PM

Thanks Paluka. I was concerned I was off in my thinking and that I'd screwed myself by getting too tricky.

Boris

03-22-2005, 03:26 PM

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and disagree with Paluka. In these types of games the maniacs will put in lots of money after the flop when they are drawing very slim. Thus there is no need to build a pot pre-flop. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the limp-re-raise play. But if it must be done, it's better to use this play against relatively good players to get them to put money in the pot while they still have a chance.

Paluka

03-22-2005, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In these types of games the maniacs will put in lots of money after the flop when they are drawing very slim. Thus there is no need to build a pot pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to make more money at poker. Building a pot preflop with QQ seems like a really good way to do this.

tom

03-22-2005, 06:43 PM

i think u screwed yourself by using that pic. now that is a gay pic.

tom

03-22-2005, 06:48 PM

i think the limp re-raise is rarely a good play, but sounds good in the situation you described.

pokerjo22

03-22-2005, 07:38 PM

It will be part of a series. perhaps.

Saborion

03-22-2005, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In these types of games the maniacs will put in lots of money after the flop when they are drawing very slim. Thus there is no need to build a pot pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
And that's a reason to not get as much money as possible in the pot preflop with what is very likely to be the best hand? As someone once asked me "Don't you like money?"

SinCityGuy

03-22-2005, 11:09 PM

Hand #1 isn't a limp/reraise; it's an overlimp reraise, which is terrible with AKo.

Midseason

03-22-2005, 11:12 PM

With big hands vs bad players I want as much money in the pot preflop, on the flop, on the turn and on the river.

If the fish stuck between you and the maniac are calling 2 more cold when you limp reraise then they are calling 2 cold if you raise so this way you get in 3 bets preflop instead of 2 which is great for the type of hands you are describing.

There is a big difference between a 20 pfr and a 40 pfr so against the 20pfr I think you should probably take the safe option and raise it up yourself though.

PassiveCaller

03-22-2005, 11:17 PM

anyone else think this is pretty funky? I like hand 2.. but the overlimp-reraise with AKo I'm not so fond of.

Boris

03-23-2005, 12:13 AM

Well you could apply the same argument any time you thought you had the best hand. QQ is such a monster hand that your hand strength pre-flop correlates closely with the strength of your hand after the flop. But where do you draw the line? In these types of games there will be plenty of times when A-Jo rates to be the best hand before the flop. But I never hear anybody talking about the merits of limp re-raising with A-Jo. My original point was that if you are playing against bad, aggressive players you might want to think about pot building when you have a massive edge. In general that means after the flop, the exceptions of course being the big pocket pairs. Against strong players its difficult to get them to put money in the pot when they are drawing slim. The one chance you have is before the flop so it might be worth it to limp re-raise in this case.

Boris

03-23-2005, 12:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I need to make more money at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen brotha!

pokerjo22

03-23-2005, 01:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is a big difference between a 20 pfr and a 40 pfr so against the 20pfr I think you should probably take the safe option and raise it up yourself though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the 20 pfr and the 40 pfr were sat next to one another, so the combined probability of a pfr was pretty high.

pokerjo22

03-23-2005, 01:59 AM

Hi Sin - would you mind explaining why?

Your Mom

03-23-2005, 02:27 AM

Your pick really does bother the hell out of me. Maybe that is what you were going for. If so, good job.

pokerjo22

03-23-2005, 02:57 AM

Its all Clarkmeister's fault. I had a perfectly serviceable pic until he waded in on it.

Klepton

03-23-2005, 04:50 AM

i loved your original avater...simple and cute

to the hands, i have never limp-re-raised on online poker, just becasue I never want to invite a hand to limp that would have folded for 2 bets...

AKo i would always raise with, but if i was about 90% sure that someone would raise if I limped with QQ, as you did in this hand, i see it as being very profitable