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View Full Version : Just read this. Looooooong.


octaveshift
03-22-2005, 12:28 PM
So last night I decided to make a run at the WSOP qualifier on Paradise. It was only a $25 buy-in, and I figured it would be a fairly loose group of WPT-watching maniacs pushing every hand. I was right. So I played my standard tight-aggressive game, and by first break, I was in 20th place, out of a field of several hundred. (With no rebuys, even. Woot!)

Anyway, a few hands after the break, my stack is around 12,000, and the blinds are somewhere around 600, with a 25 ante.

I've got rockets in the CO: AsAd

MP (T9000) raises to 1200

Folded to me.... I push, praying for the call, and he does, with: JsJc
(I would have much preferred Ax, so this kind of sucks)

Flop comes: JhXsXs
(I want scream.)

Turn: Xs
(OK. One more spade please. God, are you listening?)

River: Xd
(Pokar is a heartless bitch.)


OK, so here it comes....

This is the second time in two days I have been severely crippled by getting my money in PF with AA and getting cracked. In a normal ring game, this wouldn't bother me at all. In fact, I'd reload and earn it back from the promiscuous caller. But in a tournament, I feel like I can generally outplay the competition, and busting out like this sucks.

- Yes, I know that getting my money in with AA preflop is the best-case scenario.
- Yes, I know that I should question if poker is the game for me if I am even pondering this play.
- Yes, I know this seems like a thinly-veiled bad beat story. It's not. I love having the best of it.

Just humor me....

Without improvement, AA is just that- a pair. Does it make sense to risk your tournament life on a pair?
If you are a better player than the players at the table, I think the answer could very well be no.
(But I am open to hearing I need to pull my head out of my ass.)

Here are some things I have been entertaining:

1. Should I have just reraised instead of pushing?
I think that in a situation like this, a reraise might actually be more likely to get him to fold than my push was. I think a lot of times, weaker players get panicky with a hand like JJ and are likely to call a push when they shouldn't. If I reraise, it says "I think my hand is better," and I think this forces the other player to ask himself if JJ really is that strong, and gives me a chance that he will lay it down. (At this level in a tourney, I'd actually like to see him lay it down, especially with an underpair. I'd be very happy to pick up the pot and move on to the next hand, as I am confident I can outplay him later.)

2. Should I have called, and seen the flop?
I am not sure how I could get away from this flop, as there are no draws, and I have the backdoor nut flush possible, but you never know. I have become somewhat "OK" with detecting a set, so I may have let it go here, but in all honesty, I doubt it. Just an option to consider. IE- if the flop comes TJQh and I have AsAc, I would consider dropping it to considerable action. (And then probably push anyway. Hah.)

So I guess, in the end, the question is this:
No matter what level of a tournament, is trying to get your stack into the middle with AA _always_ the correct play?

Discuss.

(Disgust?)

pooh74
03-22-2005, 12:34 PM
You should always be so lucky to have your tournament life riding on an over PP...most wins are forged on much smaller edges...this is obvious to you im sure.

The only reason on god's green earth that you would want to reraise PF NOT all-in is if you thought he might fold to your all in and you'd want to extract more chips before he'd let go of his hand...

octaveshift
03-22-2005, 12:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You should always be so lucky to have your tournament life riding on an over PP...most wins are forged on much smaller edges...this is obvious to you im sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop making sense.

deacsoft
03-22-2005, 12:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]

This is the second time in two days I have been severely crippled by getting my money in PF with AA and getting cracked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, I've been playing a seriously ridiculous amount of SnGs the past week+. Of the ones that I do not finish in the money, approx 70% of the time I get my chips in as the preflop favorite and still exit early. It happens. Get used to it.

[ QUOTE ]
Without improvement, AA is just that- a pair. Does it make sense to risk your tournament life on a pair?


[/ QUOTE ]

A-A is not just a pair. It's the highest pair. Would you rather be risking your tournament life with J-6o?

[ QUOTE ]
1. Should I have just reraised instead of pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could have but it would have ended up with alll the chips in preflop anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Should I have called, and seen the flop?
y push anyway. Hah.)

[/ QUOTE ]

No. A-A has a much better chance of wining against 1 opponent as opposed to 2 or 3 opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess, in the end, the question is this:
No matter what level of a tournament, is trying to get your stack into the middle with AA _always_ the correct play?


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you'd be calling multi-way all-ins it is. If 4 players are all-in in front of you and you'd be committing a great portion of your stack; some may find it correct to fold A-A.

[ QUOTE ]
- Yes, I know this seems like a thinly-veiled bad beat story. It's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. This is a long and pointless post and I believe you already know the answers to your questions. Again the bottom line is this: WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE J-6?

octaveshift
03-22-2005, 12:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. This is a long and pointless post...


[/ QUOTE ]

OK.

[ QUOTE ]
WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE J-6?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the flop came JJ6, yes. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

SuitedSixes
03-22-2005, 12:58 PM
You owe me 5 minutes of my life back.

Just fold next time you get pocket Aces, that will make you a happier person.

Tommy Angelo Article on Folding Aces (http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/the_worst_play_ever.htm)

Larimani
03-22-2005, 01:00 PM
Same thing happened to me in a tournament earlier... I had the 2nd biggest stack & pushed all in with AA only to be called by the chipleader who had 33... what the hell was he thinking, I don't know... Anyways, I was very happy when I saw he 33, but much less happy when a 3 came down on the flop...

I then had the same thoughts as you... with a AA you're an 80% favourite. But are you willing to take the 20% risk of being out of the tourney?

I think you *have* to take that risk. That's poker. risk vs. reward... and the reward here is doubling your stack.

I'm sure there are situations where maybe it's not worth taking the 20% risk... for example if you're on the bubble and 1 player has only a couple of chips left whereas you have a small but not tiny stack. But someone with more knowledge of tournament play could go into that...

octaveshift
03-22-2005, 01:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You owe me 5 minutes of my life back.

[/ QUOTE ]

YOU WILL NEVER GET THEM BACK!

0WN3D!

octaveshift
03-22-2005, 01:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Tommy Angelo Article on Folding Aces (http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/the_worst_play_ever.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Great story. Thanks.

sofere
03-22-2005, 01:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing remains, in mind or matter, from my journey, except that now, when I lift the corners and see ace-ace, it’s like I'm getting winked at.


[/ QUOTE ]

I love that line.

SuitedSixes
03-22-2005, 01:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tommy Angelo Article on Folding Aces (http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/the_worst_play_ever.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Great story. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

For those of you who don't know about him, Tommy Angelo is a 2+2er on the MHSPLNL forum. He is a musician/author/poker coach. All of his stuff his entertaining and worth reading.