Countering the 'Raise & Fold to a 3-Bet' strategy

[That guy]

Just curious how often you higher-stakes guys use the play of 3-betting a raiser on the river in hopes that he will be using the 'raise and fold to a 3-bet' strategy??

I understand that this is 100% situational but that seems like a very tough play to make it +EV. But generally, how often does this very situational play come up??? Potential answers could be: 'Once in a blue moon' or 'at least every day' or 'multiple times a day' or whatever...

thanks.

[AcesUp]

Like you said, very situational...

Also, if you over-use this play (more than once or twice a session), your more observant opponents will catch on and make you pay...

That said, if you can pick up a pot a month with this play, you just raised your hourly by about 15-20%...


-Aces

[That guy]

a common example?

You are the aggressor with TPTK. A flush card hits the turn (you don't have the flush) and you get raised. Now the board pairs on the river and you bet and get raised... good spot to consider a 3-Bet?

[Fianchetto]

[ QUOTE ]
a common example?

You are the aggressor with TPTK. A flush card hits the turn (you don't have the flush) and you get raised. Now the board pairs on the river and you bet and get raised... good spot to consider a 3-Bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so.

You have to look at the size of the pot too, but I think this is just an expensive play with very little chance of working. If they are trying to make a move on you, then they will probably fold, and you had the best hand anyway. If they have you beat they will call, or cap it.

In limit hold'em you are going to have a very hard time getting someone to fold on the river for one more bet like that. Even if you make them think about the full house, they will still call with their flush or two pair or whatever and make you show them.

With a strong read against a known opponent, maybe it could work....but I still I don't think it is a profitable play in most games.

[That guy]

In limit hold'em you are going to have a very hard time getting someone to fold on the river for one more bet like that.

On the one hand, 3-betting on the end is a very difficult/risky move to try to pull in limit hold em. So therefore 'raising and folding to a 3-bet' makes sense in a lot of cases...

But 'raising and folding to a 3-bet' is making a big laydown and limit hold em is not about making big laydowns on the river.

I am just a lowly 5/10 player but have dreams of taking on the middle limit Mirage games (20/40) in a year or two. Moves like this scare the be-jesus out of me right now... So I am curious how often you pooh-bahs are using these types of moves that seem essentially out of the realm of possibility to me...

If someone pulled that move on me in a live game at the Mirage, I would surely throw up right there on Ed Millers lap.

[MaxPower]

I think you should spend your time thinking about other things.

I don't think I've ever done this and I've been able to remain a winning player.

You think that you might get outplayed when you take a shot at a higher limit. The good players in the higher limit games may outplay you but not in this fashion.

[James282]

Here's one. I have 54h in the SB. I raise and the BB calls. We have played 1 on 1 heads up so I have a decent beat on his play. He is also a winning full game player.

The flop is Ah 3h Qd. I bet, he calls.

Turn is 6s. I bet, he raises, I call.

River is a Qs. I bet, he raises, I three-bet, he folds.
-James

[Lestat]

I remember a live play hand from a couple of years ago. The pot was huge and I was out of position with a busted straight flush draw. However the other end of a straight did get there. My lone remaining opponent was an aggressive thinking player and I knew he had a small set. There was no way I was gonna check/raise bluff him off his hand. For one thing, he knew I was capable of this play. Also, he'd have too easy of a call for just a simple check/raise.

I knew there was only one to go. Bet out and 3-bet his coming raise. Like I said, he was a tough thinking player. I was hoping he'd put me on the missed flush draw, but with the two ranking cards that just made the straight. Sure enough, he raised my bet and I re-raised. He didn't even think that long before he folded. A check/raise never would have worked. Oh, I almost forget your original question...

<font color="red">But generally, how often does this very situational play come up? </font>

Cut to beginning:

I remember a live play hand from a couple of years ago.

[Lestat]

Very heads-up thinking. Nice read/play. But did you consider it very well may have been another busted heart draw that folded? Even so, you took the play away from him.

I'm having a hard time thinking of a legitimate hand that has enough value to raise the river, but not enough value to call one more bet. ??

[That guy]

Thanks. Given the posts above, it seems like 'raising and folding to a 3-bet' is often a good situational strategy at my level (5/10) and higher.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Very heads-up thinking. Nice read/play. But did you consider it very well may have been another busted heart draw that folded? Even so, you took the play away from him.

I'm having a hard time thinking of a legitimate hand that has enough value to raise the river, but not enough value to call one more bet. ??

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this player is tricky enough to raise a big ace for value but doubts that I would three-bet with less than a Q. I busted him for 1k or so heads up, mostly from extracting value, so this seemed like the completely perfect card to restab at the pot, especially because I think he would raise a Q on the flop and would not wait til the turn to raise a hand like a Q.
-James

EDIT: re: him having a busted heart draw. This was my partial read, that was why I bet out the river in the first place.

[mach3]

I think the situation James describes is a good example. Everytime I have successfully pulled this off, and it's not common, the board usually pairs. So let's say you call from the SB, check and call until the board pairs, then play it very strongly. More often, I will have a good hand, such as a large PP or TPTK and have someone try a checkraise on the turn or river, only to fold to see them fold to a 3bet.

[AcesUp]

The situation I thought you were referring to (and to which I was responding) is when you are against two opponents on the river, the first bets, the second raises, and you three bet to knock out the original bettor and isolate the raiser.

This is the play that I was referring to as very situational (and also very strong and very profitable if done sparingly and correctly)...


-Aces

[anatta]

"I am just a lowly 5/10 player but have dreams of taking on the middle limit Mirage games (20/40) in a year or two"


I remember thinking the Vegas middle limit games were some terrific challenge, too. I was in awe of the "Vegas Pros" and what voodoo they might put on me if I tried to take them on. It ain't all that. Not even close. If you stick around these boards and work on your game, I have no doubt you'll see for yourself.

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]

I am just a lowly 5/10 player but have dreams of taking on the middle limit Mirage games (20/40) in a year or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be really suprised at what you see in Vegas up to 20/40.
I just spent two weeks there.

[Ulysses]

That reminds me of this hand. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=mediumholdem&amp;Number=372168 &amp;Forum=f4&amp;Words=bluff&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main=3 72168&amp;Search=true&amp;where=sub&amp;Name=122&amp;daterange=1&amp;n ewerval=2&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodypre v=#Post372168)