Waited til the turn to raise. standard, or raise the flop? [Archive]

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jedi

03-22-2005, 11:42 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Jedi is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $2. Jedi posts a blind of $2.
UTG (Villian) calls, 1 fold, MP2 (poster) checks, Jedi (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Villian bets, MP2 folds, Jedi calls, BB calls.

I wanted to wait until the turn for a safe card (meaning non-overcard, non-heart) to raise. Should I just raise the flop there?

Turn: (3.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Villian bets, Jedi raises, BB folds, Villian calls.

Well, there's the safe card, I raise to protect the hand.

River: (7.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Villian checks, Jedi checks.

Damn, hearts got there. I thought I was in a situation where he'd only call me if I were beat, so I check behind.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Comments?

meep_42

03-22-2005, 11:54 AM

Raise the flop, bet the river.

If he's drawing on the flop, kill his pot odds (by making him pay 2 bets in a small pot) and implied odds (by knocking out BB) by raising. You're likely ahead here, but I wouldn't go too crazy once BB is out of the picture.

On the river, he'll call you with a weaker Q, a T, and maybe 99/77 if he's a donk, he won't raise a better Q than you. I think this is a clear value bet / fold to a raise.

-d

ErrantNight

03-22-2005, 11:59 AM

edit to include: for god sakes raise preflop. meant to include this before, and distracted myself /end edit

this isn't a time to wait until the turn.

and yes, there are times (since there seems to be an inordinate backlash these days when anyone dares suggest someone was wrong for suggesting waiting until the turn).

the pot is small... and you can reasonably "protect" your hand against the BB just as well now as you can on the turn, and you'd prefer on this semi-coordinate board that you don't offer a cheap look at it. additionally, a lot of cards improve your hand on the turn. K or 9 make you open-ended, an 8 or A add a gutshot (although you wouldn't be crazy, obviously, about the A, i'm less worried about the K as an overcard). but your hand isn't so strong that you're trying to build a pot here, either, and you want to charge any ridiculous or legitimate draws. just raise.

and that's an easy river bet. just because a third heart came DOES NOT MEAN SOMEONE HAS A FLUSH. sheesh.

chief444

03-22-2005, 12:02 PM

Raise preflop.

Raise the flop.

Bet the turn and river.

jedi

03-22-2005, 12:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

and that's an easy river bet. just because a third heart came DOES NOT MEAN SOMEONE HAS A FLUSH. sheesh.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't just the hearts. It was also the fact that I could have been outkicked that hand me worried. TP, MK isn't what I had in mind with in a river bet.

Results: Villian shows J5 for rivered 2 pair. Yes, I will now be betting TPMK against this villian for all time.

Here's another hand with the same villian. Knowing what I know now, do I 3-bet the turn here?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Jedi is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 (Villian) calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Jedi raises, 3 folds, UTG+2 (Villian) calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Villian bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Jedi raises, Villian calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Villian checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Jedi bets, Villian raises, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Jedi calls.

River: (14.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Villian bets, MP3 folds, Jedi calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Villian has 8d 8h (four of a kind, eights).
Jedi has As Kh (two pair, kings and eights).
Outcome: Villian wins 16.75 BB.

Fat Nicky

03-22-2005, 12:08 PM

yea, before anything, this is an easy pre-flop raise. On the flop, the raise is even easier, then just bet until villain plays back at you. this hand is easy.

meep_42

03-22-2005, 12:14 PM

I think calling the turn c/r is fine.

-d

ErrantNight

03-22-2005, 12:20 PM

the turn c/r here is much stronger than anything pulled in the first hand.

he seems a bit aggressive, but until you seem him overdoing it the call is kewl.

ErrantNight

03-22-2005, 12:20 PM

but you're betting if checked to on this river

chief444

03-22-2005, 12:22 PM

This one looks fine.

jedi

03-22-2005, 01:19 PM

Okay, so it looks like I should have raised the flop in hand 1 because the pot was small and I COULD protect the hand with a flop raise. Now, if I had raised with QTs from the CO as suggested, do I still raise the flop if bet into? The pot is now larger, I can't protect the hand anymore, right?

Hand 2, is usually standard operating procedure for me. I don't think I can find a fold here anywhere against this opponent. I actually thought I might have beaten him on the river when the board paired because it counterfeited his 2 pair, but oh well.

chief444

03-22-2005, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now, if I had raised with QTs from the CO as suggested, do I still raise the flop if bet into?

[/ QUOTE ]
Then it would probably be OK to wait, especially if BB still saw the flop.

CallMeIshmael

03-22-2005, 03:36 PM

I have a question about the preflop raise...

If you were in a situation where:

10-handed, UTG calls, MP2 calls you have QTs in this position (no one posted in this example).

You have no reads on UTG/MP2.

Do you still raise. (I don't, and am wondering if this is a leak. But there is a world of difference between these two situations, so I had to ask).

chief444

03-22-2005, 03:50 PM

I would still raise. If I knew one or both of the opponents to be good at poker I would limp though.

CallMeIshmael

03-22-2005, 03:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would still raise. If I knew one or both of the opponents to be good at poker I would limp though.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I would generally go with: raise a known that is bad, limp two unknowns, limp two decents.

But it seems like I'm not missing an automatic raise.