SpyDog's call for Value Bet Review [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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QTip

03-22-2005, 10:37 AM

Here's a couple I ran into that I was questioning a value bet.

In this hand I'm against 2 25/7 and 1 40/3...they all go to the river, and that's freaking me out.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (10 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ??

Villian I'm HU with at the end sucks, but, there's an overcard and the way he played it postflop smelled like a FF and a c/r waiting.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (9.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

Would you have valuebet either of these?

chief444

03-22-2005, 10:41 AM

The first hand I don't think is that close and checking would be pretty bad.

The second is closer but I'd bet. It looks more like a pair of T's than anything.

27offsooot

03-22-2005, 10:42 AM

Bet both. 1 is an easier bet than two. Call a raise in 1, maybe fold to a raise in two.

ErrantNight

03-22-2005, 10:43 AM

why the hell is loose donk and a semi-reasonable player calling down on this board freaking you out in hand 1? seriously. quit being results oriented. if you won this hand, you REALLY have no excuse for dregging it up and putting it on display. at least if you lost we can berate you for being results oriented, which everyone has been from some time or another. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

as for hand 2... it depends why you raised the turn. did you raise, planning to fold to a 3-bet and planning to take a free showdown? or did you smell b.s. with the turn bet (something like... JT) and get scared because another diamond fell on the river?

either way i think i'm betting and folding to a check raise.

Michael Davis

03-22-2005, 10:43 AM

I think you should change your hands to KT and JT and ask the same question.

-Michael

QTip

03-22-2005, 10:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why the hell is loose donk and a semi-reasonable player

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that it makes a huge difference, but the reason I was sweating some was because it was 2 reasonable players on the river with one yet to act and one that just waited a while before checking the river to me.

PokerBob

03-22-2005, 10:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a couple I ran into that I was questioning a value bet.

In this hand I'm against 2 25/7 and 1 40/3...they all go to the river, and that's freaking me out.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (10 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ??

Villian I'm HU with at the end sucks, but, there's an overcard and the way he played it postflop smelled like a FF and a c/r waiting.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (9.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

Would you have valuebet either of these?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO you value bet both.

Hand 1: If one of the retards has a 7, good for him. But any Q and maybe T pays you here.

Hand 2: This joker has you on AK-AJ. He probably has TPJ-KK. If he has an A, I think he 3-bets you on the turn.

QTip

03-22-2005, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
as for hand 2... it depends why you raised the turn. did you raise, planning to fold to a 3-bet and planning to take a free showdown? or did you smell b.s. with the turn bet

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy was a serious donk. I really put him on a FF on the flop. Then didn't want to show weakness on the turn so bet into me. I did plan on folding the 3 bet there. When the 3rd diamond fell, I thought he was after a c/r.

ErrantNight

03-22-2005, 10:47 AM

you feared a reasonable player was calling you down with bottom pair and connected on the river?

ErrantNight

03-22-2005, 10:49 AM

you're way too rigid in your reads... if you think he was on a flush draw that strongly, it makes bet/fold really easy.

Michael Davis

03-22-2005, 10:49 AM

"When the 3rd diamond fell, I thought he was after a c/r."

This is way too narrow a range for your opponent. He could have any pair as well as some other stuff and the river gave some of his drawing hands a pair. In a heads up pot against a donk you shouldn't ever fear a flush or flush draw until your opponent gives you good reason to. And that means when he raises with three or more on board.

-Michael

QTip

03-22-2005, 10:51 AM

I was really in hand-reading mode on the river...to be quite honest. I hadn't seen a showdown at the table more than HU in the 2 hours I was playing, and I guess I just choked with 4 of us there.

QTip

03-22-2005, 10:53 AM

Yeah...that makes sense now that everyone's harping it /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Glad I posted these. I think I'm swing way to far to the side of passivity. I used to have a AF of 4 on the river /images/graemlins/grin.gif I had to start tweaking that to get reasonable and I think I'm going way too far on the other side. I'm going to have to keep reading about river play and posting hands like these....lot to learn.

QTip

03-22-2005, 10:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
checking would be pretty bad

[/ QUOTE ]

I checked /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

ErrantNight

03-22-2005, 10:59 AM

keep at it /images/graemlins/cool.gif

spydog

03-22-2005, 11:00 AM

Hand 1 is an easy value bet. I will pay off a raise here also.

Hand 2 I would bet and fold to a CR.

Also, I would play hand 2 differently. Why raise this turn? Are you trying to blow him off of JT or something that is way behind? I smoothcall this turn and raise any non-diamond/non Ten river. If he's semibluffing with a flush draw it looks like he's willing to go the distance with his bluff since he bet into the Ace turn.

ErrantNight

03-22-2005, 11:02 AM

no offense... but you were in "monsters under the bed" mode... not hand-reading /images/graemlins/smile.gif that was a semi-coordinated board that no one woke up on with a decent high card on the flop that your reasonable opponents could be calling down, particularly if they had part of a draw. additionally, with the donk in there, you could have two reasonable opponents on a draw with a donk calling down with A-high. more likely, something in between. but no one has given you a reason to suspect that they can beat an overpair. they've checked. if you bet, and all of a sudden it's capped coming back to you, fold, and take some notes. but since that will happen about as frequently as you flop a straight flush... you should bet this river, automatic stylee, every time, without thinking twice.

QTip

03-22-2005, 11:05 AM

where I get to say "Man, I suck"...

Hand #1:

River: (10 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results:

SB has Kd 6d (one pair, sevens).
BB has Ts 9s (two pair, tens and sevens).
Hero has Ad Ac (two pair, aces and sevens).
CO has 6h 6c (two pair, sevens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 10 BB. 

Hand #2

River: (9.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

Results:

UTG+1 doesn't show.
Hero has Ks Kh (one pair, kings).
BB has Th 9c (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.16 BB.

QTip

03-22-2005, 11:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I would play hand 2 differently. Why raise this turn? Are you trying to blow him off of JT or something that is way behind? I smoothcall this turn and raise any non-diamond/non Ten river. If he's semibluffing with a flush draw it looks like he's willing to go the distance with his bluff since he bet into the Ace turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your line. I guess I was thing FF maybe with the Ace and then was afraid of the Ace and wanted to see how much he liked his hand..was thinking of folded the 3 bet.

You know.. I think I went from borderline postflop maniac to postflop pussy in about 4 weeks...

I'm going to be posting a lot of hands over the next week of so....so get ready to critique...

meep_42

03-22-2005, 11:49 AM

QTip

03-22-2005, 12:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In a heads up pot against a donk you shouldn't ever fear a flush or flush draw until your opponent gives you good reason to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Michael.