Card Player Looking Over the Wrong Shoulder

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

In the Jan. 14, 2005 issue of Card Player, Barry Shulman writes pertaining to the Card Player website:

[ QUOTE ]
Starting from behind to become number one was extremely rewarding but very difficult. This year, it will be even tougher to stay number one, ...

[/ QUOTE ]

It turns out that Barry's fears were well founded. When Barry reached number one we assume he was relying on the rankings of Alexa.com (http://www.alexa.com), (which is owned by Amazon.com). According to them Card Player passed www.pokerpages.com (http://www.pokerpages.com) in the fall of 2004. At the time they were about the 10,000th highest ranked site out of the billions of websites out there. A laudable achievement.

Since then, their ranking has improved to as of yesterday 5,491. That ranking is their three month average. Based on other information from Alexa, it appears that it will remain around this figure for a while. Poker Pages is around 13,000. So Card Player has extended their lead over them.

Except they were looking over the wrong shoulder. www.twoplustwo.com (http://www.twoplustwo.com) just reached a three month average rating of 5,400. And the trend line shows that we will be well below 5,000 very soon. (We have had several days where our daily rank was better than 3,000.)

So it looks right Barry was right about how tough it would be for him to stay number one.

Thanks to everyone for all the support, we couldn't have done it without you.

Best wishes,

Mason, David, Mat, Ray, and Chuck

[slickpoppa]

Someone must have just spilled some chum in my room, because all of a sudden I smell some bad blood.

[MarkL444]

i dont get why this is a sticky /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Mike Gallo]

Mason,

Congrats. When do I get my shirt /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[theRealMacoy]

Way to go, guys!

Love the site. Love the books.

Keep on bringing us top notch books with authors who actively contribute to the forum and the sky is the limit. You simply can't help but attract more and more numbers.

Cheers,
the Real Macoy

[AncientPC]

While it's great that 2+2 is growing as seen here (http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&range=1y&size=large&compare_sites =&y=r&url=www.twoplustwo.com), it's kind of scary at the same time. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[MaxPower]

Does Alexa mearure reach or frequency? I can see where 2+2 might have less reach than Cardplayer but a much greater number of page views.

As a statistician Mason, is Alexa more reliable than Media Metrix or Netratings? I doubt it.

2+2 will always be number one in my heart no matter what the stats /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Ancient:

Here's another one to look at:

click here (http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&range=6m&size=large&compare_sites =cardplayer.com&y=t&url=www.twoplustwo.com)

Notice that Two Plus Two is the blue line.

Best wishes,
Mason

[ChoicestHops]

What is it that Card Player has against 2+2?

[ThaSaltCracka]

GO 2+2 w00t w00t!!!!

Nice work guys.

[1800GAMBLER]

Where do people go on twoplustwo.com?
* archiveserver.twoplustwo.com ~ 1%

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Dan Mezick]

Everything hinges on leadership.

Which org has the best generals?

Which generals have the best troops?

Which troops have the best morale?

I rest my case

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
GO 2+2 w00t w00t!!!!

Nice work guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all because of you man. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mmbt0ne]

http://www.f2f2s.com/images/pwned.jpg

PWNED

[BluffTHIS!]

The thing I think is hilarious about this is that this website acts as marketing tool to promote sales of 2+2 books precisely because it does not give away the content of same even though those books are much discussed here. Cardplayer's site however, gives enough of their articles in each issue away gratis to anyone surfing there so that it actually hurts their subscription sales when so many players like myself don't mind reading that for free not caring about the rest of the content they don't put up (I let my subscription lapse a couple years ago because 80% of the content is worthless to a non-beginner, and as pointed out in these forums on several occasions, can actually be harmful if you can't figure out mathematically flawed advice there on your own.) If you don't care to follow tournament poker there is little incentive IMHO to subscribe.

[PoBoy321]

What happened around christmas?

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]


Thanks to everyone for all the support, we couldn't have done it without you.


[/ QUOTE ]
You're welcome. A free copy of HOH will do nicely, thanks.

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
GO 2+2 w00t w00t!!!!

Nice work guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Frequitude]

[ QUOTE ]
What happened around christmas?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing Christmas...

way to go 2+2, this place is the coco-stone-nuts.

[Zeno]

You are enjoying all this aren't you Mr. Malmuth.

(And you certainly have every right to do so).

I like 2+2. I hope the success continues.

-Zeno

[Turning Stone Pro]

I say this with all sincerity. This site and your books are without a doubt the best reference materials that one could ever use to become a winning poker player.

Cardplayer magazine, from what I can tell, makes for good reading while I'm waiting in a casino to be seated in a game. Pretty girls advertising casinos and tournaments, warm-fuzzy stories like the older fellow who always starts off by saying "come in and let's have some nice hot chicken wings and lets talk about . . . ."

This website is invaluable. Keep up the great work.

TSP

[M2d]

Congrats, Mason et al.
is it ironic that 2+2 is growing this way when many of the current users vow not to turn other poker players on to this forum? that mentioning this site and the books are noted as stupid practices when in a game? I think the growth is a testiment to the quality of materials you put out as well as the quality of the posters currently here.

fwiw, I think you should be looking over your own shoulder, though. I hear sup bro is creating a website that's going to be launched soon.

[lighterjobs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What happened around christmas?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing Christmas...

way to go 2+2, this place is the coco-stone-nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

why didn't cardplayer go down around christmas? everyone ordering subscriptions?

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What happened around christmas?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing Christmas...

way to go 2+2, this place is the coco-stone-nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

why didn't cardplayer go down around christmas? everyone ordering subscriptions?

[/ QUOTE ]

This chart tracks hits right? If so, i would GUESS that the reason Cardplayer didn't go down as much is because a lot of their hits occur when a new issue is released. 2+2 probably has a pretty steady stream of traffic that makes up their numbers. So when a holiday occurs, 2+2 loses a lot of its traffic, but not that many people would have visited Cardplayer over that time anyway, since they can read the issues whenever they want. I don't know what kind of business their forums do.

[mike l.]

mason congratulations. i love reading about 2+2's continued success.

how about a shindig or seminar or something for the excellent regular posters who help make this site so consistently interesting and readable; so inviting to newcomers. many of us put a lot of time into making this the impressive place it is, and promoting poker and the 2+2 way of studying the game.

mike l.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
how about a shindig or seminar or something for the excellent regular posters who help make this site so consistently interesting and readable; so inviting to newcomers. many of us put a lot of time into making this the impressive place it is, and promoting poker and the 2+2 way of studying the game. - mike l.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a complementary cruise for all pooh-bahs and above would work for me.

~ Rick

[mike l.]

"I think a complementary cruise for all pooh-bahs and above would work for me."

i was thinking something more along the lines of another hour or two with david and mason q+a but this time by invitation only with no creepy retarded vegass regulars wandering in and asking noob questions and wasting everyone's time like last time.

plus i want to hear david tell me my 300 bb downswing is not abnormal at all, it's very reassuring.

[jediael]

Hey Mason,

I honestly don't care about these ratings, the only thing that matters is that 2+2ers kick ass!

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
plus i want to hear david tell me my 300 bb downswing is not abnormal at all, it's very reassuring.

[/ QUOTE ]
he could tell you that while you sip mai tais and get side by side massages on the complimentary cruise.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
mason congratulations. i love reading about 2+2's continued success.

how about a shindig or seminar or something for the excellent regular posters who help make this site so consistently interesting and readable; so inviting to newcomers. many of us put a lot of time into making this the impressive place it is, and promoting poker and the 2+2 way of studying the game.

mike l.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this idea a lot, i don't care about "i was thinking something more along the lines of another hour or two with david and mason q+a" but i think it would be very cool to meet all the people i have talked to for so long on here and come to like. one thing though this should not take place in a casino unless someone can get me a fake id. seriously though, this is a cool idea.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
"plus i want to hear david tell me my 300 bb downswing is not abnormal at all, it's very reassuring."

[/ QUOTE ]

The higher you play (with a likely thin edge in BB per hour relative to your BB per hour edge in smaller games), the more likely or even certain this will happen.

~ Rick

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Zeno:

Yes. We are enjoying this. But it's also great to see hard work and dedication pay off.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bruiser:

At the beginning of April, Two Plus Two Publishing LLC is moving to new offices in Henderson, NV. We will then have the space to do exactly what you suggest. So perhaps if someone wants to get a group together and head out to Henderson, we could do exactly what you and others suggest. (We will be about 11 miles from The Mirage.)

best wishes,
Mason

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Bruiser:

At the beginning of April, Two Plus Two Publishing LLC is moving to new offices in Henderson, NV. We will then have the space to do exactly what you suggest. So perhaps if someone wants to get a group together and head out to Henderson, we could do exactly what you and others suggest. (We will be about 11 miles from The Mirage.)

best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, I suggested this idea months ago, and got NO responses in the thread. I suck.

I really think a bi-yearly 2+2 conference or something like that, with seminars from the authors, like Mike said, is a great idea.

[theBruiser500]

mikes idea not mine but i enthusiastically support

[theBruiser500]

noflan that is kind of funny how when you say something no one listens but when i say something mason agrees that it's a great idea, don't you agree? i think that goes to show that i'm a more respected and liked poster than you.

[Stuey]

Is it possible the same people are coming back to 2+2 everyday. And a new batch of fish goto cardplayer everyday. 2er's seem very loyal.

I didn't take the time to review the stats throughly. Does it show if the traffic is repeat visitors or fresh hits.

Either way gratz. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
noflan

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
i think that goes to show that i'm a more respected and liked poster than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bruiser, I would never deny that!

[mike l.]

cool. who wants to set it up? i think a vegas poster should set it up and invites should go to people w/ 1000 posts or more or something like that. it should NOT be open to the general public.

[trying2learn]

1000 posts kinda sucks...but i guess that's because i don't have that many. what would you say if someone said the limit should be 5000?

[AncientPC]

That they need to spam OOT more like TSC.

Some of the most knowledgeable posters don't have that many posts anyway.

[trying2learn]

agreed...all i really was trying to point out was that putting a post limit is going to just frustrate/alienate certain people...regardless of the limit.

[mike l.]

the idea is the people going should be people whove been on here a little while and made significant contribution/particopation. no other way to do it really.

what you dont understand was that at the last mason/david q+a session at the mirage there were all these donkeys who wandered in from wsop and card player affiliated type retardation and they just kept asking these really asanine questions and wasting everyone's time. so the idea is to prevent that.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how about a shindig or seminar or something for the excellent regular posters who help make this site so consistently interesting and readable; so inviting to newcomers. many of us put a lot of time into making this the impressive place it is, and promoting poker and the 2+2 way of studying the game. - mike l.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a complementary cruise for all pooh-bahs and above would work for me.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's not confuse quantity with quality. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's not confuse quantity with quality.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, let's /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[trying2learn]

well, you're absolutely correct that i don't know about the last q&a...and i'll even agree that i'm not ready for something like this personally (after reading the website for a year and finally joining and posting last month), but that doesn't make someone with less than 1000 posts one of those "donkeys".

[DeezNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
cool. who wants to set it up? i think a vegas poster should set it up and invites should go to people w/ 1000 posts or more or something like that. it should NOT be open to the general public.

[/ QUOTE ]

im going to make 800 nonsensical posts so i can be invited.

DN

[trying2learn]

908 for me...well, 907 now.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
What happened around christmas?

[/ QUOTE ]

Christmas

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
1000 posts kinda sucks...but i guess that's because i don't have that many. what would you say if someone said the limit should be 5000?

[/ QUOTE ]The limit should clearly be 10k. El D and I will kick it gangsta style.

[Andy B]

Card Player may make some money from subscriptions and newsstand sales, but I think they make most of their money by selling advertising. They distribute that rag for free at about every card room in the country. And they sell advertising on the web site too....

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Card Player may make no money from subscriptions and newsstand sales, but I know they make all of their money by selling advertising. They distribute that rag for free at about every card room in the country to make their advertisers happy . And they try to sell advertising on the web site too.... but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't give most of it away as added value for advertisers in the book

[/ QUOTE ]

I made a few adjustments to your post, it was easier than typing my own. Thanks Andy...

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's not confuse quantity with quality

[/ QUOTE ]

True. Phat's post are more rare but uncanny in poker knowledge and very insightful. Many that have 1K posts have not really contributed much to the website, although many have. It would be impossible to sort it all out so everyone should be 'in'. Or, Perhaps only those that posted in the old forum, pre September 2002, should have special privileges. Or not. It's not worth quibbling about really, in my opinion.

-Zeno

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not worth quibbling about really, in my opinion.


[/ QUOTE ]

Considering that David Sklansky has <800 posts and I have >1000, I agree.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

I don't know why you think a limit is necessary. Set a cap and have an application process. It might be a pain for the moderators, but it's better than arbitrarily punishing informed posters who may only have 700 or so posts.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Card Player may make some money from subscriptions and newsstand sales, but I think they make most of their money by selling advertising. They distribute that rag for free at about every card room in the country. And they sell advertising on the web site too....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is of course true, HOWEVER, the only way they sell that advertising is by virtue of a certain size distribution (subscriptions plus newstand sales) that is verified by the Audit Bureau of Circulations to advertisers. Thus any publication dependent on advertising has a very great need to have maximum paid distribution since that is what advertising rates are based upon.

[whiskeytown]

last time we had a shindig at the Mirage, I took a picture that showed photographic proof of Mason STRADDLING (with the rock, of course) - but STRADDLING none the less - clearly a -EV play.

Till his Mafia boy Ed Miller took away my camera and smashed it on the floor and said "raise, bietach"

go to the seminars, enjoy, but don't take pictures of Mason/David/Ed making -ev plays - your digital camera ain't worth it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

RB

[ChristinaB]

This Alexa ranking system confuses me.

2+2 shows as #16 on this list (http://www.alexa.com/browse/general/?&CategoryID=6731&mode=general&SortBy=Popularity&S tart=0) , but the URL for 2+2 is shown as forumserver.twoplustwo.com/ubbthreads.php instead of www.twoplustwo.com (http://www.twoplustwo.com) which could affect the number of hits picked up.

[Luv2DriveTT]

Thats funny, I tried to use my camera phone to take a picture of Mason's straddle, but somehow his face didn't appear.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[BradleyT]

Hi Mason,

One thing you didn't consider is google Pagerank - which is how authoritive google considers your site for the industry it serves. CP = PR 6, 2+2 = PR 5. However I'm sure anyone that has regularly visited both sites would disagree with those rankings.

[BradleyT]

However you have more than double the number of pages indexed by google than cardplayer has indexed.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=site%3Aforumserver.twoplustwo.c om
103,000

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=site%3Awww.cardplayer.com
53,000

[johnfromvirginia]

I actually know ONE person (a pretty serious amateur) who is a paid subscriber. He doesn't make it to the B&Ms every month and he wants to get every issue. He's just one of those guys that can't get enough. He buys every printed document that comes out on poker.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually know ONE person (a pretty serious amateur) who is a paid subscriber. He doesn't make it to the B&Ms every month and he wants to get every issue. He's just one of those guys that can't get enough. He buys every printed document that comes out on poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be like that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tell him I have almost (missing perhaps five or six) every issue going back to day one. They are mostly in perfect condition in magazine holders and after a year they are stored in boxes (I pick up more than one copy and archive one immediately). I've used these for my work (e.g., looking up Ciaffone rule columns) but now most material is online and I need to start cleaning things out.

Anyway, I'm considering finding a way to get them into the hands of someone who would appreciate them. After all, issues are now sold on eBay /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

[theBruiser500]

who's going to organize the 2+2 party? rick nebula maybe you should

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
who's going to organize the 2+2 party? rick nebula maybe you should

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't organize parties for anyone who can't spell or pronounce my name /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

[Abe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
who's going to organize the 2+2 party? rick nebula maybe you should

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't organize parties for anyone who can't spell or pronounce my name /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

I met Rick Nebiolo last year in an LA cardroom. I can't pronounce his name either.

Nice guy - but I think he plays too tight.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
www.twoplustwo.com just reached a three month average rating of 5,400. And the trend line shows that we will be well below 5,000 very soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I'll put in a coupla shorts. Thanks for the tip.

[M.B.E.]

Google Pagerank is totally outdated. Even Google doesn't really use it any more to order results (at least they don't use the publicly available version of pagerank).

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
Google Pagerank is totally outdated. Even Google doesn't really use it any more to order results (at least they don't use the publicly available version of pagerank).

[/ QUOTE ]

A site with high PR backlinks will rank higher than a site with low PR backlinks plain and simple.

[M.B.E.]

As I said, the "pagerank" available to the public through Google's toolbar is outdated. That figure is based on backlinks to the site from at least a year ago.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Ancient:

Here's another one to look at:

click here (http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&range=6m&size=large&compare_sites =cardplayer.com&y=t&url=www.twoplustwo.com)

Notice that Two Plus Two is the blue line.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting. Any reason for the obvious correlation between traffic to the two sites? Can this be tied to poker events on ESPN, major tourneys, or just weekly patterns?

[scalf]

jeesh..

how about a free t-shirt

gl

lol

gl

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[b0000000000m]

Am I the only one that thought of this picture when they read the subject line of Mason's post?

http://www367.pair.com/hall0343/photos/poker/poker92703/poker.jpg

[jnalpak]

congrats, glad to help

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Mason,

One thing you didn't consider is google Pagerank - which is how authoritive google considers your site for the industry it serves. CP = PR 6, 2+2 = PR 5. However I'm sure anyone that has regularly visited both sites would disagree with those rankings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congrats! There was a google PR update for many sites over the past few days and 2+2 is now a 6.

[adios]

About 5 or 6 years ago during the .com period I stated 2+2 was worth $1 billion, maybe that's not so ridiculous now /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[BottlesOf]

Do you guys make use of a third party adserver? Do you have a media kit?