KQo, a little post flop play

[Scuba Chuck]

What's your line here on the river?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t1180)
CO (t760)
Button (t400)
SB (t1585)
Hero (t1585)
UTG (t1615)
MP1 (t875)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t45</font>, Button calls t45, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t145) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, CO folds, Button calls t150.

Turn: (t445) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (t445) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: t445

Results:
<font color="white"> villain had 8s 8h </font>

[Benholio]

I might try a smallish value bet (like 100-150). I don't mind checking/calling a small bet either, though, just in case he checked behind with the flush somehow.

[microbet]

Ok, I know you are talking about postflop, but I fold KQo against a raise in the BB in the first level. Am I making a mistake?

I play the flop exactly the same way.

I know you're supposed to play what the player is likely to have, not what they should have, but I don't know why he would flat call the flop without a straight or flush draw, so I would want to check the turn too. However, he only has 205 chips left and there is no way he will be ahead of you and not bet it, either now or on the river, and his bet will be a bluff half the time, so I'm not folding anyway. Since you don't even have one diamond, put him all in on the turn.

If he had a deeper stack, I would check the turn and maybe the river too.

[adanthar]

See, it's hands like *these* (out of position, marginal to start with, raise in front, do not have an ace in them, unsuited) you should be folding PF.

Once you get here I want to go ahead and checkraise the flop or just bet 100 and fold to a raise.

The shutdown on the turn is good but I think you need to bet/fold the river. Of course, the problem is that you've made the pot too big with your overbet...but had you bet 100 it would've been 345, making a 150-ish river bet in order.

edit: Wait, I thought it was the CO...go ahead and put the button all in. He's coldcalled two bets so far and has already lost half his chips this early, so he's probably a fish with QJ.

[Scuba Chuck]

Adanthar, I tend to play some of these hands when I have a significant chip position. I'm pretty good at getting away from hands. But agreed, I don't have position here. Had the raise come from anywhere earlier than CO, I would have folded this hand.

In this hand, I really wanted to see a cheap showdown, and I was planning on check-calling a smallish bet.

[John Hurst]

I bet 150 as a blocking/value bet. If he comes over the top you have to give him credit for the flush or a gutsy bluff. I think this bet gets called enough at the lower levels to be +EV. If I'm last to act I definitely check behind though.

[curtains]

Checking the turn and river are clearly wrong. The guy has 200 more chips, and hes a partypoker idiot. Way way way too passive to play like that.

[Benholio]

I just noticed the guy only had 200 chips left. Curtains is right.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Adanthar, I tend to play some of these hands when I have a significant chip position. I'm pretty good at getting away from hands. But agreed, I don't have position here. Had the raise come from anywhere earlier than CO, I would have folded this hand.

In this hand, I really wanted to see a cheap showdown, and I was planning on check-calling a smallish bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I figure out whether I want to call a raise with a hand is pretty simple: I put him on a generic read (AA-TT/AK-AQ, that plus Broadways and pairs, two cards, something in between, etc.) and then figure out whether I can play to take his stack if I hit.

KQo out of position is not something I can generally take a stack if I hit a K with, so the answer is no. QJs? Iffy but possible. JTs? Maybe. 22? I'm in there. But the real point is that where the raise comes from doesn't make much difference; you have to check/fold any flop you miss, when you hit you lose as often as you win (sometimes to KJo that overplays his hand and forces you to fold), and you can't play it strongly enough to take his stack, so there's no real point defending. Ya dig?

Anyhow, as I was saying: If the button pushes the river, you may have to call, and the button seems like a calling station, so I bet. It's a thin bet but that's one of those things you signed up for when you defended this hand.

[The Yugoslavian]

Preflop: I fold (surprise, surprise). Seriously though, your position is awful and are in against a raise so I think even Phil Van flop-a-lot would quite possibly fold here.

Flop: Okay, I do like this although I would most likely bet a bit less - perhaps 2/3 of the pot.

Turn: check here seems fine although given his stack you might as well bet. I don't think you're gaining value by checking here (perhaps since you maybe can induce some hands you have beat to go allin that would otherwise fold) since he's most likely going to have to call your allin once he's called so much of his stack on the flop.

River: Yeah, so I'd just put villian in here for all but perhaps one or two of his chips. He's chosen to already call off 1/2 his stack with whatever he's got and has shown weakness....I think you'll get value off of your bet here.

Yugoslav
PS Folding pre-flop here increases Shania, which should not be underestimated.
PPS Ya heard?
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[curtains]

I would call preflop. You have 1580 in chips, these guys have 700 and 400, and they are in the cutoff+button.

[Irieguy]

Adanthar's reply would be brilliant if the chip stacks were different. Still, his reply is the most valuable part of this thread even though it's wrong in this particular situation because of what's going on with the chip stacks and the fact that one of these monkeys has already lost half of his chips in level 1.

The preflop call is fine against these blokes, and you have a pretty good chance of getting their stacks.

Your goal on the flop is to induce a bluff. A check would work better here because they don't have enough chips to expect you to fold if they are naked. Your flop bet is really bad, I think.

On the end, I agree with Yugo that a busfare bet is in order.

Irieguy

[curtains]

The most valuable part of this thread is that checking the turn and river is flat out horrible.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]

The most valuable part of this thread is that checking the turn and river is flat out horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everybody already knew that (except Scuba), so how is that valuable?

Irieguy

[Scuba Chuck]

Thanks guys. The most valuable part of this thread is that you guys aren't afraid to express your true feelings. Lol.

Thoughts very much appreciated.

Irieguy, the reason I didn't check here is I didn't want to allow anyone to have a free card. What you're saying is that due to their stacksizes, you're able to predict that these guys will willingly put in some of their chips here. Is that correct?

If so, when is it appropriate for me to open bet vs. hoping for a checkraise?

To the others, why is a lesser flop bet 'better'? Phil Van Sexton suggested that if I don't intend to put anymore chips in the pot, then betting a little more is the better move here. (PS - I see how I should have considered stacksizes more here)

Scuba

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
To the others, why is a lesser flop bet 'better'? Phil Van Sexton suggested that if I don't intend to put anymore chips in the pot, then betting a little more is the better move here. (PS - I see how I should have considered stacksizes more here)

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that you came up with a plan and stuck with it. Bet big, and check it down. Unfortunately, this was the wrong plan. That might have made more sense with A9 (second pair TK) or as a total bluff, but KQ is just too good. In addition, the stack sizes allow you to play this aggressively.

The CO raised to 45 pre-flop. That's not really impressing me, so I have no reason to think that KQ isn't good here.

Betting 100 on the flop isn't wrong, but I probably would've checkraised. I'm not much of a checkraiser, but I think its the best play here.

Betting 150 is too much. You want morons with 88 to call you....oh wait, they call anyway. Still, I think 150 is too much if you do choose to bet.

Checking the turn is horrendous, but at least now I understand what you were thinking. I'm sorry that my previous advice cost you at least 200 on this hand.

[bball904]

[ QUOTE ]
River: Yeah, so I'd just put villian in here for all but perhaps one or two of his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you leave him with one or two chips? I hate people that do that and I actually enjoy the sweet consolation prize when I call and lose here and am left with 1 chip. Do you see why?

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
River: Yeah, so I'd just put villian in here for all but perhaps one or two of his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you leave him with one or two chips? I hate people that do that and I actually enjoy the sweet consolation prize when I call and lose here and am left with 1 chip. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

you really should tip the dealer more than a buck, you tightwad. . . /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[beggars]

Agree with the consensus here.

Preflop - KQo is a tough hand to call a raise with out of position - even with your stack.

Post flop - possibly too much but I don't mind it. Morons aside, that bet should have eased concerns about a flush draw. Now I'm hoping Q-J, J-10 but still worried about a tight A-Q play. Set is also a possiblity but he'd have raised you all-in to protect. Unlikely.

Post turn - have to bet here. Even if he's on Q-J or worse, now he could be 4 to the flush and you let him have one for free. I cannot believe he didn't bet here. So weak, particulary with his stack. Would you have called?

Post River - have to bet here. He's shown absolutely no strength and he can't really hurt you. Make him PAY!

[Scuba Chuck]

I think I'm seeing a difference between my mindset, and the postflop forum mindset. It's my mindset to just take down the pot here on the flop. I get the sense that at this stage, I should be trying to build the pot. Is that correct?

[aeakos]

[ QUOTE ]
when is it appropriate for me to open bet vs. hoping for a checkraise?
Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]

Eagerly awaiting this reply. I imagine it has to do with protecting vs the flush draw and straight draws...however, I'd like to hear Irie and adar's opinion. I would think however, that you'd want to bet to insure you've protected yourself instead of taking the chance of giving a free card.

[curtains]

It's very unlikely that betting will eliminate a straight or flush draw, also its very unlikely that if you check, these hands will fail to bet themselves.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
also its very unlikely that if you check, these hands will fail to bet themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you only say that because of their stacksize?

[curtains]

A combination of that and the buyin amount. (I think it's under $55 from the stack sizes)

[curtains]

btw I was unclear, you may be able to fold a gutshot straight draw, just not JT.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm seeing a difference between my mindset, and the postflop forum mindset. It's my mindset to just take down the pot here on the flop. I get the sense that at this stage, I should be trying to build the pot. Is that correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
You want to build the pot and price out draws, but you don't want to force worse hands to fold. By betting big on the flop against reasonable opponents, you will only get called by better hands (AQ) and a small number of worse hands (QJ).

You force hands like 88 or draws to fold (normally). Your bet forces them to play correctly and you make no money. By betting smaller, you encourage them to make mistakes by calling. An added benefit is losing less if you are already beat.

The main downside comes from letting hands like QJ to come along cheaply. Chances are that they don't have Qx, so this case shouldn't be a major factor in your decision.

The question now becomes: should I bet or checkraise? This depends on how aggressive your opponents are. In other words, how likely are they to bet with hands worse than KQ, and how likely they are to bet with hands that they would fold to a 100 bet from you.

Since the CO raised preflop, I have to assume that he is somewhat aggressive and its likely that he'll make a continuation bet even if the flop missed him completely. If he bets, the calling station button is caught in the middle and you can extract extra bets.

As Irie pointed out, the button is very short stacked. If the CO does check, you would expect him to take a stab at this pot. He has 400 and the pot is 150. Many players would take a shot here.

Based on this limited knowledge, it seems that the CO might make a continuation bet or the Button will bet in desparation. They would do this with cards that they would fold for 100, so you should check and give them a chance to hang themselves.

The other factor is the flop. This flop is not scary, so the chance of them bluffing at it is higher, and the check-raise makes more sense. If the flop were KQJ, it's unlikely that they will bluff at it, so you should bet out with KQ.

If you read them as passive calling stations, you should not try to check-raise. They like to call, so bet and let them call. If they are willing to call 150 with 88 or a draw, then feel free to bet 150.

[adanthar]

I get why Irie says a PF call is fine. I disagree, but this is a (minor) style difference. [Part of the issue is that while I'm pretty sure I can play for the button monkey's stack, for all I know the CO is solid and he's the raiser here. Another part is that, 3 levels from now, I play a very good big stack and want to be in that top 3 group instead of a few hundred chips below it.] Having said that, it doesn't really matter because it's a reasonably close PF decision and therefore worthless to argue much about.

The flop CR is a profitable but very risky play. Basically, the problem with it is that when you get 3 bet all in you're gonna get around 3:1 or even more to call it, and sometimes he's making that push with another KQ, QJ or even JT/Axd. On the other hand, odds are you have the best hand and want his chips in.

It's tricky, and if I check there are bet sizes I would actually just fold to (button calling makes it more likely but not all that much). I think what Irie's implying is that you can just call the flop, which would work much better if the board was Q72r rather than this. Remember, the button monkey is still in the hand when the CO bets and sometimes he actually has a JT or diamonds himself.

So, sometimes I'll bet 100 and fold to a CO raise because I really don't feel like putting more than that in with this hand (although of course I turbocall the button). Other times, I check. Then I fold, or I call, or I checkraise and it all depends on the action behind me so I can't give a general guideline for it.

I do know I bet the river, because hey, he's a monkey.

edit: The turn check is not bad, BTW. So far, we have monkey on two cards, a Q, JT or diamonds, the first three of which may or may not have a diamond in them. Off the top of my head, the odds you lose this pot by checking is maybe 20% IF the button isn't gonna call any bet with his turned draw (he usually will, he's a monkey.) If the button now goes ahead and pushes, well, you can work out the odds and fold or call or what have you, but at least he's making it clear he doesn't have 88.

[curtains]

One thing I disagree with is about the turn check not being bad. I think its very bad, if the opponent just turned a draw, why should we let him have a shot at it for free. We are getting called on the turn nearly 100% of the time, meanwhile we will have the best hand a large % of those times. We aren't getting called on the river quite 100% of the time however.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn check is not bad, BTW. So far, we have monkey on two cards, a Q, JT or diamonds, the first three of which may or may not have a diamond in them. Off the top of my head, the odds you lose this pot by checking is maybe 20% IF the button isn't gonna call any bet with his turned draw (he usually will, he's a monkey.) If the button now goes ahead and pushes, well, you can work out the odds and fold or call or what have you, but at least he's making it clear he doesn't have 88.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree because I'm not folding no matter what. If he has the flush already, I'm going to lose. If he hits the flush on the river, I'm going to lose. If he has QJ, I'm going to win (probably). If he is a moron with 88, I'm going to win (probably). In all of these cases, it makes no difference what I do on the turn.

On the other hand, if he has JT or flush draw, he will check the turn and then fold on the river if he misses. If I bet the turn, he's going to call. If I bet the river after he misses, he's not.

I'm not worried about losing 200 more if he hits his draw. I'm worried about making 200 less if he misses his draw (which is more likely).

I don't think he'll fold his draw on the turn. If on a draw, he already called a huge bet on the flop, and I doubt he's gotten any smarter since then.

[adanthar]

If he has a turned flush draw, he has to have a flopped pair to go with it. After a turn check, that pair is likely still calling the river.

Since 88 isn't a realistic possibility (lol), the odds are basically that he has 1)a Q (or maybe a 9), 2)a flush [2.5) Q9, 33, etc.] or 3)JT. JT is the one where you lose chips. Everything else has you beat or calls either a turn or a river bet.

Basically, you're paying a certain number of chips (the expectation from exactly JT calling your turn bet) to find out whether he wants to push the turn. Against a particular brand of player I can sometimes make a read and find a fold here. (It's not automatic by any means. I'll just say I trust my reads in those situations.)

So, I don't mind the turn check. On the other hand, if you've decided you're not folding, period, of course you bet now.

[callmedonnie]

Folding preflop is solid, but playing with your chips with the CO raising is something I do sometimes also.

Curtains:

I see the logic of the turn and river checks, but don't you get suspicious when someone only has that few chips left and calls? Usually I think I raise, at least on river. It is fair to assume he's an idiot, but he could be setting a trap, in which case he's still dumb, just a different dumb.