K9s in MP [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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@bsolute_luck

03-21-2005, 06:52 PM

okay the table is a typical .25/.5 table with LP and most were folding to any aggression, so i may have gotten a little too loose with my hands. i want to see...

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

was that too aggressive on the turn?

btspider

03-21-2005, 06:58 PM

raise or fold PF..

what range do you put him on when he check-raises you?

sfwusc

03-21-2005, 07:03 PM

I think you call the cr turn and pray for the ace of diamonds /images/graemlins/smile.gif

SWUSC

davelin

03-21-2005, 07:09 PM

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raise or fold PF..

what range do you put him on when he check-raises you?

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Agreed. Does Hero call the river UI?

NAU_Player

03-21-2005, 07:10 PM

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raise or fold PF..

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I disagree, calling is fine here.

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I think you call the cr turn and pray for the ace of diamonds /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Or any other diamond. It looks like he can beat your pair, so you are drawing to your flush (maybe 2 pair if he didnt spike a set).
My question is if calling the villain's river bet would be correct if you dont improve

note: didnt see dave's post

davelin

03-21-2005, 07:11 PM

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raise or fold PF..

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I disagree, calling is fine here.

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I really disagree with your disagreement. You should pretty much never be open-limping in MP2.

sfwusc

03-21-2005, 07:13 PM

Call the river bet.

1 to 8 you are good. I think top pair is good 12% of the time.

SWUSC

davelin

03-21-2005, 07:14 PM

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Call the river bet.

1 to 8 you are good. I think top pair is good 12% of the time.

SWUSC

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What range of hands do you put Villain on?

NAU_Player

03-21-2005, 07:20 PM

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raise or fold PF..

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I disagree, calling is fine here.

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I really disagree with your disagreement. You should pretty much never be open-limping in MP2.

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I don't disagree that raising is good, but open-limping isnt going to be a bad thing most of the time.

What do hope to accomplish by raising? You'll scare out marginal/weaker hands and keep the hand that will dominate you. So if anyone behind you has AK, KQ, KJ, KT, or any pocket pair there isn't reason to assume they wont call your raise.

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What range of hands do you put Villain on?

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2 pair, K with a better kicker, trips

of these hands, the bb might fold an 84o but everything else still stays, and you are still losing.

_bustedflush_

03-21-2005, 07:20 PM

I would play this completely different.

Preflop: raise (given your read- -else fold)
Flop: Call/bet if checked to. 9kicker doesnt' impress me. I want the flush, but will call down w top pair.
Turn: Check
River: call a non /images/graemlins/diamond.gif; bet/raise w flush

davelin

03-21-2005, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What do hope to accomplish by raising? You'll scare out marginal/weaker hands and keep the hand that will dominate you. So if anyone behind you has AK, KQ, KJ, KT, or any pocket pair there isn't reason to assume they wont call your raise.

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Do you not raise KQo or AJo UTG? Folded to you, K9s in this position is a pretty good hand.

shadow29

03-21-2005, 07:31 PM

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raise or fold PF..

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I disagree, calling is fine here.

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You're wrong.

NAU_Player

03-21-2005, 07:36 PM

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Do you not raise KQo or AJo UTG? Folded to you, K9s in this position is a pretty good hand.

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I guess what I meant to say was that there isnt a significant enough change in your EV in the long run to make it matter. Raising isn't a bad idea, but neither is limping. With limping you lose 1 smallbet if you see the flop and it misses you. With raising, you might take it down simply because you are agressive, or you might end up losing a few bigbets to a hand that dominates you. Overall it doesnt matter, so I dont see why open limping is such a bad thing to do. (I could be wrong, but this is the way I see it)

NAU_Player

03-21-2005, 07:41 PM

Ok, now I'm interested in what S&M say on open limping. I cant find anything in SSHE, and i'm about to dust off HEPFAP. Anyone have something specific I need to look at?

edit: ok, i found it in HEPFAP. I'm wrong, thanks

FishHooks

03-21-2005, 08:20 PM

not to sound like a smart ass, but only a really good player could make money off a marginal hand like this in the long run, so if you have to ask questions on what you should do, you should of folded the hand. I personally throw this hand away just because I dont like this hand at all unless your in LP.

shadow29

03-21-2005, 08:24 PM

There's a big difference between open raising in MP2 with K9s and playing it wherever.

You would certainly raise KTs here, wouldn't you? K9s isn't that far off.

milesdyson

03-21-2005, 08:25 PM

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not to sound like a smart ass, but only a really good player could make money off a marginal hand like this in the long run, so if you have to ask questions on what you should do, you should of folded the hand. I personally throw this hand away just because I dont like this hand at all unless your in LP.

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I don't think this is true at all. I'm willing to say that if one open raised this preflop and bet any flop, he would net something with this hand in this position. Now, adding some judgment into the flop decisions, he could make a decent amount off this hand.

pokerstudAA

03-21-2005, 08:29 PM

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Turn: (4.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

was that too aggressive on the turn?

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Me thinks that was too aggressive on the turn. My opinion is that the check raise is telling you he has better than top pair. He could be check raising you with 2-pair, a staight, or possibly a set.

OUTS: 9 diamonds for a flush. However, the 6 of diamonds could boat him up and might be no good. A river K or 8 will beat 2-pair but he might have a set or straight. Possibly 5 more outs.

Best case you have 14 outs. Worst case you have 8 outs. I call the check/raise and hope to hit my flush. 3-betting here is bad.

River: I think I would call unimproved. But do not listen to me because I pay off like a slot machine sometimes.

DoctorDrew

03-21-2005, 08:30 PM

I'd open raise pf.

That's a lot of aggression from a PASSIVE player per your intro. I'd call the c/r and fold UI on the river.

FishHooks

03-21-2005, 08:32 PM

That to me is like saying well you would raise KQ UTG so why not raise QJ UTG, their not that far off. I could be wrong by here is why it ditch this hand here.
If you call this hand here your proboly going to get some limpers from behind you, and there for you are out of position.
If you raise which is think would be better than calling you are only going to get called by a better hand than K9 suited heads up or 3 handed against someone who called your raise behind you out of position doesn't sound too good to me.
I still believe you have to be a great postflop player to open up with a hand like this even in MP

Aaron W.

03-21-2005, 08:58 PM

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That to me is like saying well you would raise KQ UTG so why not raise QJ UTG, their not that far off. I could be wrong by here is why it ditch this hand here.

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The difference between KQ and QJ is a bit larger than the difference between KTs and K9s, as you are vulnerable to twice as many overcards with the latter should you hit top pair. Also, raising KQo UTG is already in the grey area (both calling and raising are good options), whereas there's not much debate about open raising KTs after 3 folds (raising is basically always right).

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If you call this hand here your proboly going to get some limpers from behind you, and there for you are out of position.
If you raise which is think would be better than calling you are only going to get called by a better hand than K9 suited heads up or 3 handed against someone who called your raise behind you out of position doesn't sound too good to me.

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Hero's read is that most players were folding to any agression (which happens at Paradise), and there's a large number of players who will take a flop with a marginal hand and fold when the miss. These two facts together make this play worthy of consideration. At weak tables, you need to be willing to raise more liberally preflop and follow through more often.

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I still believe you have to be a great postflop player to open up with a hand like this even in MP

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Not really. You just need to play with bad opponents. A .25/.50 generic .25/.50 table is a good place to find bad opponents.

@bsolute_luck

03-21-2005, 09:46 PM

wow, sorry it's been so long to reply. i had to go to class. thanks for your input. i think i'll raise next time PRF, but it is a new hand for me to play (as is Axs).

BB is really loose, but even a really loose hits sometimes. i don't know why i was blinded to it when he raised me. in hindsight, i'd have just called his turn c/r.

anyway here is the rest of the hand (which i didn't want to show or it might have changed people's responses:

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

River: (12.20 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets (all-in), Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.20 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 5c 7c (straight, eight high).
Hero has 9d Kd (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.20 BB.

ErrantNight

03-21-2005, 09:48 PM

just call the turn c/r.

and i wouldn't open limp with K9s from there. raise or fold.