Bad time to slow play aces??

[zaxx19]

Hand #5006265-23 at Mon12pmA-Final (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 21/Mar/05 15:09:16

scuddd is at seat 1 with 64525.
legreat00 is at seat 2 with 50760.
RNemetz is at seat 3 with 35400.
bates35 is at seat 4 with 42960.
tjr4 is at seat 6 with 17145.
y2mulder is at seat 7 with 15945.
zaxx19 is at seat 8 with 24205.
Cohiba_1962 is at seat 9 with 58060.
The button is at seat 1.

legreat00 posts the small blind of 1000.
RNemetz posts the big blind of 2000.

scuddd: -- --
legreat00: -- --
RNemetz: -- --
bates35: -- --
tjr4: -- --
y2mulder: -- --
zaxx19: Ah Ad
Cohiba_1962: -- --

Pre-flop:

bates35 raises to 4000. tjr4 folds. y2mulder folds.
zaxx19 calls. Cohiba_1962 calls. scuddd folds.
legreat00 folds. RNemetz calls.

Flop (board: 7h Ts 7c):

RNemetz checks. bates35 bets 2000. zaxx19 goes
all-in for 20205. Cohiba_1962 folds. RNemetz folds.
bates35 calls.

Tournament all-in showdown -- players show:

bates35 shows 7s 7d.
zaxx19 shows Ah Ad.


Turn (board: 7h Ts 7c 6s):

(no action in this round)


River (board: 7h Ts 7c 6s 6d):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

bates35 has 7s 7d 7h Ts 7c: four sevens.
zaxx19 has Ah Ad 7h Ts 7c: two pair, aces and sevens.


Hand #5006265-23 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
bates35 wins 57410 with four sevens.
----------------------------------------------------------------

This isnt a bad beat pot(As Im sure it appears to be)

Im 6th out of 9 and playing to win. Players are playing pretty loose and pf raiser is raising a ton and is now getting multiple callers. I really only want to win a huge pot here(incorrect thinking??) There is a decent chance any pp 10 and up behind me is just gonna push... the raiser has a pp or Ax or KQ ...


Looking back on it I need to isolate bc there are so many behind me but seriously I also need to win a big pot here and not just take down the blinds and single raise. How bad is this>? I see AA KK QQ slowplayed alot at final tables by excellent players...am I just crazy ?? Does anyone else slow play AA KK @ final tables when the blinds get huge?

I had a medium image aggression wise and had reraised a different preflop raiser like 7 hands before this and he laid down.

[Roman]

Fold preflop...

[MLG]

there is a problem with slowplaying here if it is likely to generate multiway action. you don't have enough chips to ever fold on the flop, which effectively gives anybody behind you incredibly good implied odds to bust you. I'd make it about 8000 here.

[fnord_too]

I think the only reason I would say that is bad is that villain mini raises, meaning you are giving everyone odds to call and it is unlikely anyone behind will reraise into an utg mini raiser (unless they have a huge hand). I think you just have to push here and hope to get called. If he had raised 6k, I think flat calling has more merit. Or, if you did not think it likely that anyone behind would call except maybe the BB, then smooth calling is not that bad I think. You COULD mini reraise here. That may work, but I just push and am done with it since I am pushing a lot of other hands here. (I am an information miser.)

I think I would feel kind of sick with that flop, since it is unlikely you will be able to double up here, but could easily get broke. (Not enough draws for someone to chase with a paired board, and 3 opponents who could have an odd seven).

[zaxx19]

Ya, thats my normal line.....I guess Im asking when is it correct to slow play AA KK in these types of situations...is it when you know yu will be heads up and there is an almost sure continuation bet-like when I draw AA in BB and a lp raiser raises?

Or is it always just a no no if I have a decent(depends on your definition) stack..

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
(I am an information miser.)


[/ QUOTE ]

i would also push. i'm always scared somebody's gonna read my bet size if i do something weird for a specific reason.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
Ya, thats my normal line.....I guess Im asking when is it correct to slow play AA KK in these types of situations...is it when you know yu will be heads up and there is an almost sure continuation bet-like when I draw AA in BB and a lp raiser raises?

Or is it always just a no no if I have a decent(depends on your definition) stack..

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been playing more NL ring games lately, and there are some great times to slow play AA, KK. Specifically, if you know the raiser has a big pair or AK/AQ and you know it will be HU, you are in perfect position to slow play, since those hands will keep coming after the flop, and flops that look good to you (low boards) look good to them, too. Flops like 9JQ can give you problems though.

[jhodges]

"How bad is this>? I see AA KK QQ slowplayed alot at final tables by excellent players...am I just crazy ??"
From someone who prides himself on his reasoning skills this is self-delusional. I see AA, KK QQ fastplayed alot more at final tables BECAUSE the blinds are high...and slow played more at lower levels looking for medium pots. Because "X" slowplayed a big hand pre-flop I need to do this because... Your self described medium aggressive image means that someone might play back at you pre-flop. This hand illustrates Brunson's theory of AA winning a small pot or losing a big one. Knowing when to slowplay them is the "art" and posting about losing to quads won't teach that to you.
J Hodges

[zaxx19]

In my post I didnt even mention I lost to quads...in fact I stated that IT WASNT A BAD BEAT POST. Im not complaining about losing as I took a calculated risk....what I care about is whether that risk was warranted.

Here is some LOGIC though:

If min raiser or anyone else has 10 10 (certainly j-j)or better and I push they insta call basically imho so I cant avoid the set..quads whatever.

I doubt he is raising UTG with 22 33 44 basically that leaves 55 66 77 88 perhaps 99 as hands that im allowing to draw here.

As for the trailers thats where Im giving too big of odds to bc the pot is swollen and its multiway.

Still Im left wondering whether he would muck 77 here so easily...id say he would 70-80% of the time maybe a bit more..it certainly isnt 90+%)

This all has to be figured into whether I should push or not doesnt it?

I agree its a push or a reraise but im not sure that protects me from a set-quads alot of the time given how loose the table had been playing.

[Cleveland Guy]

I would re-raise here, and then push it all in on the flop - almost regardless of what the flop is.

I know you think this is the hand you need to double you up - but look at it from this standpoint.

you have 24K - if you raise and take it down now, you ad 7K to your stack, - that's a 29% increase.

If you raise to 8000 - and just get him to call and fold the flop - then you have added 11K to your 24K stack - almost a 50% increase.

Either way - you are moving yourself away from the shortstacks, and giving yourself time to play some poker.

If you get to go all in and get called, then you can now double up, but I would liken any increase to my stack at this time.

Look at how the dynamic changes if you just take this 7K pot, let alone a 9K or 11K.

You move away from the 2 short stacks - and when you take out Bates and RNemetz bets you are withing a BB or 2 of them.

So while still in 6th- you are now closer to 4th than you are to 7th.

You also have some real fold equity, as a guy will have to think a lot more when he could lose over half to most of his stack vs. 1/3 or less of it.

[MLG]

zaxx your missing the point a bit. the problem with calling here isnt the original raiser, its all the others you let in. So, raising doesnt protect you from getting drawn out on by one player, but you dont have to worry about 3 players drawing at you when you can never fold the flop.

[zaxx19]

Ya, I know look at my last post...


"As for the trailers thats where Im giving too big of odds to bc the pot is swollen and its multiway."


the problem is all the trailers getting AMAZING ODDS on any speculative hand(and in position from their POV)..

You are absolutely correct that a reraise is in order. It might not have saved me here(down with results oriented thinking) but I need to isolate and probably just push any flop.

Great advice as always MLG. The more I play the more correct you guys become its rather scary. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MLG]

zaxx, we may make a player out of you yet.

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
You are absolutely correct that a reraise is in order. It might not have saved me here(down with results oriented thinking) but I need to isolate and probably just push any flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow - that's what I said in my post. Scary- Zaxx and I on the same page.

[sdplayerb]

my rule for slow playing AA is:
1. After I call I have around 4x left compared to what will then be in the pot, and he has at least that much.
2. I have position on the raiser.

I am also never doing this when he minraises as the blind is too likely to come in, then there is too much chance of me getting busted.

I also may do it without position when the opponent is very aggressive post flop.
And I am less likely to do it with position against somebody very timid post flop.

I want a situation where on the flop once he bets he will be pretty pot committed when I pushin. Thus around the 4x the pot area.

when you did it was extremely bad.