i am the only loon that folds tptk here?

[raptor517]

***** Hand History for Game 1769828844 *****
NL Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:10584022 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, March 21, 13:56:59 EDT 2005
Table Table 35041 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 10: PblCb ( $1000 )
Seat 9: wtf_PWND ( $1000 )
Seat 8: ndfui ( $985 )
Seat 1: BuillGates ( $2025 )
Seat 6: tiltada ( $985 )
Seat 7: foxtrot59 ( $985 )
Seat 4: ShaunShrock ( $1020 )
Seat 3: ccc922 ( $1030 )
Seat 2: tttt123 ( $970 )
Trny:10584022 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to wtf_PWND [ Ac Kh ]
PblCb folds.
BuillGates folds.
tttt123 folds.
ccc922 folds.
ShaunShrock folds.
tiltada calls [15].
>You have options at Table 11709 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11950 Table!.
foxtrot59 calls [15].
ndfui calls [5].
wtf_PWND checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, 7s, 5h ]
ndfui checks.
wtf_PWND checks.
tiltada checks.
foxtrot59 bets [90].
ndfui folds.
wtf_PWND raises [180].
>You have options at Table 11709 Table!.
tiltada calls [180].
>You have options at Table 12035 Table!.
foxtrot59 calls [90].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
wtf_PWND checks.
tiltada bets [200].
>You have options at Table 11950 Table!.
foxtrot59 calls [200].
wtf_PWND ????

[Zameus]

They limped in late right? Maybe KQ or KJ suited (spades, picked up the flush draw on the turn)? Maybe Suited connectors with one paired and with a straight and a flush draw. This is a $100 buy in so they probably know what crap those hands really are and forgo raising pre-flop knowing they'll have to dump if they get played with.

Nobody is reraising but you and you checked on the turn showing weakness and encouraging a hand like KQ to make a play at the pot with their new flush draw giving them some extra oomph. Pot odds are good enough to call now with the suited connectors but they probably had 2 pair to have called that re-raise you put in on the flop. Doesn't sound like anyone made trips since no one is trying to protect from the flush draw. Same goes for the possibility of them having already made the straight.

Just my $0.02, feel free to shoot me down but easy on the attitude, I'm new here.

[MastiffPaul]

Making the plays you have, I don't know that I have the information I need to fold TPTK here. I'm confused as to why you haven't raised preflop, why you check-min-raised on the flop, and why you checked the turn. It looks like you ran into an opponent who had a plan to check raise, or raise the river, and so he turned into a calling station in response to your aggression on the flop. I think against two opponents who have shown strength, you can lay this down. You have probably signaled to them that you have two pair or better, and they don't seem to care. Seems like a fold. But I'm still confused about your decisions up until that point.

Also, I encourage you to use the converter.

[barry111]

You did not raise PF, So I dont think anyone has on you TPTK. The board does not look scary to me. I dont play the $100's, and I am weak-tight so I would let this go, and see what they show. After all this is level one and you will probably see 2 pair against TPGK or something like that. Anyway I just wanted to respond so I can say HOLLA

[wuwei]

Your line here makes no sense to me at all.

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

edit: I suppose I should elaborate. If you aren't going to lead the turn and you're planning on folding to a bet after you check, then the flop c/r really sucks.

[Zameus]

Right, no raise preflop on your part, I just give you a King, maybe 2 random pair since you were in the blind, or worst case scenario maybe you caught a small set. Your check on the turn somewhat eliminates the set possibility and lessons the 2 pair possibility.

Are we going to get the results?

[ColdestCall]

Oh man, this just sucks. I would have felt a little ill when tiltada cold called the flop raise, and that feeling would increase when foxtrot smooth calls the turn bet. It really feels like you are beat here, unless Tiltada was encouraged to bet the turn as a semi bluff with a straight of flush, or both draw), or maybe he has decided his KQ or KJ is good, which is possible because your check after check raising the flop suggests you may have lost faith in your K-10 or something like that. But, if that is the case, why is foxtrot smooth calling this turn? Did he back into a flush draw with Ks-whatever? Flush draws without a K seem kind of unlikely, as he did bet out on the flop and call a check raise, and now he is calling 200 on the turn. It seems like there is some combination of the following out there - trips, weaker king, flush or straight draw (possibly with a pair on the flush draw), two pair. I'm leaning towards tiltada having trips and you being ahead of foxtrot. Either way, this is a tough fold. I would probably fold more often than I pushed, (I don't think you can just call the 200)....No, on second thought that is probably not true. I would probably push more often than I folded, but I would be exceptionally relieved every time the push won, and probably say something like "What do you think these guys were betting and calling you with, idiot?" to myself every time I lost....

[raptor517]

RESULTS

***** Hand History for Game 1769828844 *****
NL Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:10584022 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, March 21, 13:56:59 EDT 2005
Table Table 35041 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 10: PblCb ( $1000 )
Seat 9: wtf_PWND ( $1000 )
Seat 8: ndfui ( $985 )
Seat 1: BuillGates ( $2025 )
Seat 6: tiltada ( $985 )
Seat 7: foxtrot59 ( $985 )
Seat 4: ShaunShrock ( $1020 )
Seat 3: ccc922 ( $1030 )
Seat 2: tttt123 ( $970 )
Trny:10584022 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to wtf_PWND [ Ac Kh ]
PblCb folds.
BuillGates folds.
tttt123 folds.
ccc922 folds.
ShaunShrock folds.
tiltada calls [15].
>You have options at Table 11709 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11950 Table!.
foxtrot59 calls [15].
ndfui calls [5].
wtf_PWND checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, 7s, 5h ]
ndfui checks.
wtf_PWND checks.
tiltada checks.
foxtrot59 bets [90].
ndfui folds.
wtf_PWND raises [180].
>You have options at Table 11709 Table!.
tiltada calls [180].
>You have options at Table 12035 Table!.
foxtrot59 calls [90].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
wtf_PWND checks.
tiltada bets [200].
>You have options at Table 11950 Table!.
foxtrot59 calls [200].
wtf_PWND folds.
** Dealing River ** [ 2h ]
>You have options at Table 11950 Table!.
tiltada bets [300].
foxtrot59 calls [300].
>You have options at Table 11709 Table!.
tiltada shows [ 7h, 7d ] three of a kind, sevens.
foxtrot59 doesn't show [ Ks, Jh ] a pair of kings.
tiltada wins 1600 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, sevens.

so yea, i think i lost the MINIUM number of chips on this hand. so yea, maybe i have some idea what im doing, who knows.

[ColdestCall]

[ QUOTE ]
tiltada shows [ 7h, 7d ] three of a kind, sevens.
foxtrot59 doesn't show [ Ks, Jh ] a pair of kings.
tiltada wins 1600 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, sevens.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dammit, dammit, dammit! I knew what they had and I pushed anyway! What did I think they were betting and calling with??!!

I am an idiot.

Edit: oops, forgot haiku...

With many cold calls
Top pair, top kicker no good.
Don't blow your stack here.

[Zameus]

So with straight and flush possibilities on the board, titilda bets 200 into a 1000 pot on the turn? I guess the straight coming slowed him/her down but who would've stayed with just a draw and all that activity on the flop? Weird play in my opinion. Am I crazy or just too paranoid?

[ColdestCall]

[ QUOTE ]
So with straight and flush possibilities on the board, titilda bets 200 into a 1000 pot on the turn? I guess the straight coming slowed him/her down but who would've stayed with just a draw and all that activity on the flop? Weird play in my opinion. Am I crazy or just too paranoid?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tiltada's bet on the turn looks a lot more like someone who has trips and is trying to drag more money out of the other players than someone trying to protect a hand. I don't think Tiltada is all that worried about draws, because it doesn't look like anyone has one (although he's not really interested in giving a free card either, just in case Ks-weak kicker is out there....). He's trying to bet just enough to tie someone who has TP medium kicker into the pot, or, even better, to get someone who has TPTK to push, and, had his opponent been me instead of OP in this hand, he probably would have succeeded. I need to work on this......

[raptor517]

yes, i clearly have no idea what im doing

[Zameus]

That makes sense. I guess I've become overprotective from playing too many $10 S&G's. I can't say I would have pushed after seeing them both call that reraise but I wouldn't have had the sense to completely shut down either. Something similiar happened to me when I flopped TPTK with AQ and a player who limped in with AA just flat called me all the way down the line. I did slow down at the river with a proportionally small bet because I smelled something. I'll never know why he didn't just put it all in on the river though, he was close to the felt and at that point I'd have to call.

[raptor517]

err, yea, make a note, this is a 109 and people sometimes play decent. sometimes.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, i clearly have no idea what im doing

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, obviously the results justify your play. Case closed. Nothing more to be said, right?

[Zameus]

Noted. I've played the 50's and done ok but never anything at that level (on the internet). Tell me, at $109 does everyone fold to your re-raise fearing aces or trips or would it be possible to stick around with KQ suited considering you limped. I'm just trying to get better at placing people on hands and would appreciate your insight at that level.

[wuwei]

Been thinking about things a little more. I missed how severely the flop bettor overbet things. Thus, you're c/r does accomplish something - it puts a serious to decision to the other player in the pot. It does nothing with regard to putting the bettor on a hand, however.

When you checked the turn, what was your plan if it was checked to the flop bettor who bet again? And were you planning on leading the turn if it was heads up?

[raptor517]

as in everything with poker, it depends. there are terrible people at every level, you just have to find them.

[raptor517]

i was not worried about the original better. if the cold caller had folded, i would fire at the turn. however, there was cold caller, and i immediately decided to give up the pot at that point.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
Been thinking about things a little more. I missed how severely the flop bettor overbet things. Thus, you're c/r does accomplish something - it puts a serious to decision to the other player in the pot. It does nothing with regard to putting the bettor on a hand, however.

When you checked the turn, what was your plan if it was checked to the flop bettor who bet again? And were you planning on leading the turn if it was heads up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your investing to much money to make a read on people with these ideas you have. You don't need to raise to put the original bettor on a hand, you already have all the info you need about his hand. It is quite safe to assume he has at best five and most likely 3 outs. Once you are cold called by another player that was to act behind you the hand is over for you, unless you know the person to be a total idiot call box.

I think smooth calling the original bet and seeing if anyone else comes in behind, plannning to lead the tunr if its HU is an option in this hand, especially if we know that the players left to act are competent. There are no draws on this board at all, so anyone in should have a made hand and you can't beat many of those.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Your investing to much money to make a read on people with these ideas you have.

[/ QUOTE ]

That wasn't quite where I was going with the question. It was more probing toward having a plan for the turn if things were HU.

[Apathy]

if HU play it as If you have the best hand and your opponent has a piece of the board. Pretty standard.

[morgan180]

the smooth call of the re-raise here is a pretty good indicator to me that something es no muy bueno. nice lay down. i think that a pair of sevens is a hand that you can put him on here, and the call says i want to keep the other guy in the pot, not isolate the re-raiser, as you might see with TPGK, AA, etc.

i think posting the results though leads to far too many results oriented responses. jmho.

[sofere]

Raptor -
You still haven't stated your logic for not raising AK. In this situation it may have led to losing more chips, but when you are out of position, isn't it better to define the hand so its easier to know what you're up against? Or is it better to see the flop for free and only play out if you hit? I know it depends, but I'm curious as to what your thought process was at the time.

I think having 3 in hand made this decision quite a bit easier though. How would you have played if it was heads up and tiltada made the initial raise?

-sofere

P.S. Isn't it awesome when someone takes the fall so you can see what a great lay down you made? I hate it when it doesn't get showed down.

[lastchance]

I like raising to 225 on the flop, really getting an idea of what the other may have. That would make the turn a nice fold, at the 109 at least.

[raptor517]

oh, logic. well, ok. im the guy who talked about not raising AK utg at 10-15. raising any amount on that level that is legitimate is not enough to make people fold. i dont care about defining my hand at this point, as no one really cares.

i really hate playing AK oop. i dont raise because again, i dont think its that strong of a hand in ep. position is everything in NL. everything. acting first is a huge disadvantage when you hold a drawing hand like ak. therefore, i dont raise with it. argue away /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[adanthar]

The minute tiltada coldcalls 2 bets on a rainbow board with two relatively worthless straight draws I think 'set'. When one of them hits the turn and she underbets, I bail. Maybe I bet/fold the turn, I dunno, but you're right to get out.

But boy, does your reasoning for not raising PF really, really suck.

(For one thing, if you check/fold every flop you miss you're STILL ahead when putting chips in PF alone)

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
boy, does your reasoning for not raising PF really, really suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

[raptor517]

ok, well, keep throwing away chips with AK early, and pretty clearly, there is no reason you should even consider the possibility of another way to play a hand. i mean god, it is poker, and there cant possibly be more than one answer can there? golly gee, im wrong and i submit to everyone who does worse than me forever.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, well, keep throwing away chips with AK early, and pretty clearly, there is no reason you should even consider the possibility of another way to play a hand. i mean god, it is poker, and there cant possibly be more than one answer can there? golly gee, im wrong and i submit to everyone who does worse than me forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

why even post on here when everyone is clearly lacking in knowledge? wow, you played a hand passively and saved chips. do you think that there is a chance that, over the course of your poker career, your passiveness with this 'drawing hand' has cost you far more preflop than the chips you save when the monster is actually there under the bed?

oh, but let's not forget that the tournament 'can't be won early, but can be lost'.

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, well, keep throwing away chips with AK early, and pretty clearly, there is no reason you should even consider the possibility of another way to play a hand. i mean god, it is poker, and there cant possibly be more than one answer can there? golly gee, im wrong and i submit to everyone who does worse than me forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, i'm only a $20 player, and i feel the exact same way. I seem too often getting short stacked by missing AK once or sometimes even twice, leaving me w/ 400 chips at level 3--- where i would love to AK again

[raptor517]

yea, i know you are right. i have never raised ak, and im definitely saying its never correct. lets misinterpret a situational play as somethin one does all the time. which is of course why i always lose and cant even seem to come close to making money at the 109s.. oh wait.

and yea, the tournament cant be won on level 1. and it can only be lost. and its not worth raising AK EVERY time you are utg or in the sb with limpers. period. if you think so you cant possibly be successful.

oh, and feel free to criticize my play, i will continue making more than 95% of the worlds population with my terrible preflop ak play. thanks

[John Hurst]

Preflop raising or not raising boils down to personal preference. I like raising to build the pot and possibly get it heads up, but I don't have a major problem with calling. I like the flop check raise but would have made it 200-250. The fold on the turn is impressive, I'm not sure I could do it. The bet and the cold call in front must have set off warning bells and good job reacting to it. You still have a healthy stack after this hand. I think I might have gone broke. Ok probably gone broke.

[kamrann]

Interesting discussion. I have the exact same thoughts on AK out of position in SNGs as you, although I have been wondering lately if I'm being too weak/passive with it in the blinds. But like you say, it's horrible to play out of position against multiple limpers. In fact it doesn't play great against limpers at all in my opinion, whatever the position. I just feel that in Party SNGs your relatively small number of chips are just too valuable to be raising AK in these situations, if you plan to pretty much give it up the 70% of the time you miss. And it's hard to do much else - the limpers will only fold if you overbet, which isn't worth it, and on the flop so many players will call you down with any piece of the board that it's really not worth throwing out more chips when you miss most of the time.

So anyway, although it seems most disagree, I'm with you on your preflop play and will continue to do as I have been for now. I probably would have led on the flop rather than checked. I wouldn't want to risk letting three players see another card if it's checked round. Though in this case leading out would have made it much harder to get away from the hand so cheaply. And yes, as soon as you get cold-called, and he then bets out on the turn, not only into your check but into the flop raiser who is still to act behind, it screams 77 or 55, and you are right to get out.

[PktAcesSoWht]

Why wouldn't you raise this pot preflop, and also why not bet bet out on this flop? Why would you check/call on the flop and then check/call on the turn?

I don't understand your play with this hand at all. I think you played this hand in way that maximized your chance to lose it.

[PktAcesSoWht]

You clearly miss out on bigger pots when you hit with it, by not raising with this hand. To say it is not that strong of a hand, is just simply an erroneous belief.

of any two cards you could have that are not paired there are not better. I just beat KK with it so I am feeling pretty good about it.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
You clearly miss out on bigger pots when you hit with it, by not raising with this hand. To say it is not that strong of a hand, is just simply an erroneous belief.

of any two cards you could have that are not paired there are not better. I just beat KK with it so I am feeling pretty good about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a lot to learn about SNGs and No limit in general, perhaps you came from a limit background, or perhaps you just aren't very good, but you should try listening and attempt at understanding in this thread instead of posting idiotic things like this.

[morgan180]

no need to get so defensive - you asked about the hand, people are just letting you know what they think about it.

clearly you are an excellent player - that's not what's in question here. holla /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PktAcesSoWht]

well, considering I have tripled my bankroll playing SNGs in the last 3 months, I do okay. Not raising with AK is a travesty, but don't take my word, how about Dan Harrington, or David Sklansy or TJ Cloutier or any of the myriad other great poker players that would say playing AK is best played against few opponents, and generally raised, and if necessary reraised with.

I must say that I have never seen someone tear into somebody, just because they have a different point of view. What a great forum this will be when people get ridiculed for posting because someone disagrees with it.

I do understand one thing Apathy, and that is that you are a classless jerk. When is your book coming out, or are you just doing your best Josh Ariah impersonation. You have it down to perfection.

[The Yugoslavian]

You sorta brought that upon yourself with this gem:

[ QUOTE ]
I just beat KK with it so I am feeling pretty good about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, saying *this* doesn't help support yourself at all:

[ QUOTE ]
well, considering I have tripled my bankroll playing SNGs in the last 3 months, I do okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

But, yes, Apathy was perhaps a bit harsh. Not *that* harsh though, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Yugoslav
Who loves how ppl take things so personally on *an internet message board*

[Apathy]

I really don't think I am a classless jerk, and I think I contribute a lot to this forum, oh and I really don't care if you disagree.

I was not ridiculing you for your differing (incorrect) opinion and assumptions, just responding to your tone and the nature of your know it all posts. This last one of yours shows I wasn't incorrect to do so.

[ QUOTE ]
well, considering I have tripled my bankroll playing SNGs in the last 3 months, I do okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow you must be a poker god, I don't know anyone else who has done this. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-Apathy

[J-Lo]

"I just beat KK w/ AK"-- classic-- thats like sayin, i just beat AA w/ 23o... still doesn't mean i should raise with it preflop, and then go all in when i flop a straight.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
"I just beat KK w/ AK"-- classic-- thats like sayin, i just beat AA w/ 23o... still doesn't mean i should raise with it preflop, and then go all in when i flop a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

And at least with 32o you're increasing your Shania with a showdown.

Yugoslav

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
And at least with 32o you're increasing your Shania with a showdown.


[/ QUOTE ]

Its all about referencing obscure High stakes NL posts that the person your replying too has most likely not read /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And at least with 32o you're increasing your Shania with a showdown.


[/ QUOTE ]

Its all about referencing obscure High stakes NL posts that noone the person your replying too has most likely not read /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're just jealous!

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yugoslav
Who wonder why it's Shania and not....Faith.....

[curtains]

Ok time to give the definitive exact correct answer on what to do this hand. You must raise preflop, if not you have no business playing poker. I'd check out the local Burger King's if I were you raptor.

[PktAcesSoWht]

I didn't say you should because of that. It was an anectdotal statement and had no bearing on what I said. It was an oh, by the way type of thing. I didn't realize that people were so tunnel visioned here, but then again, I read things other people have written on here in jest, and I haven't seen people get so carried away.

Any two cards can beat any other two cards, doh! If you read what I said, I was just saying this just happened to me, so I am feeling pretty good about them.

Whereas, KQ I do not feel good about because I see people misplay it all the time and lose with it, and the very few times I play it full table I seem to lose with it. Hence, I don't feel good about that handn, where I win with AK so I feel good about playing that hand. I would have said anything if I knew that people would get so bogged down by the comment. It was not the thrust of what I said, it was an aside.

[PktAcesSoWht]

Well, you are classless, just look at your tone. Belittling my knowledge and my experience and my ability to play. So then I responded by saying that I have tripled my money, which I am very proud of because it shows consistent play. I was talking to you and you alone.

The advice I gave may not be how you play, but it is by far from incorrect. All you have to do is read the whole thread here and the overwhelming opinion is basically in line with what I said. I why don't you go back and flame those people?

and don't sell yourself short, you are one hell of a Josh Arieh impersonator, no, you're not classless, not at all.

You are the only person acting like a POKER GOD. I have not implied such, and I did not call anyone an idiot for playing this hand differently than I do, like you did.

Again, when is your book coming out? Since you obviously know more than everyone on this forum.

Feel free to flame away on me some more as I am done with this thread since it has all been said and there is no need to return to this thread again.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
So then I responded by saying that I have tripled my money, which I am very proud of because it shows consistent play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm seriously not trying to be a dick here but try not to be too proud of this. It really isn't necessarily indicative of any skill you may or may not have. This is a common trap many poker players can fall into. There is simply more variance in poker than almost anyone realizes (even though it's laughably small in STTs compared to other types of poker).

Again, take this as you will (it's not meant to be a comment about the beef you and Apathy have) but it's a very important psychological hurdle to overcome.

Yugoslav
Who has yet to *truly* overcome the hurdle...

[raptor517]

well curtains, maybe i should.. maybe i should. but burger king? i sure do prefer wendy's. who knows, maybe ill get lucky and get to work at chikfila. holla. and for now, im still not sure if raising is definitively correct. ill keep going back in forth until i find what is comfortable. holla

[Degen]

easy fold

how in the hell does that guy call 180 cold?

that is screaming 77. then you check and he bets our the turn...if this were a $11 tourney i'd say 46 was possible...though not here.


Degen