simple K7o flop question [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Chris Daddy Cool

03-21-2005, 02:28 PM

20/40 at the commerce

literally my very first hand at the table, i just got called just sat down and immediately buy the button so no reads on anybody no idea about anything.

CO open limps. button raises. I call with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO calls.

flop: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

bet, check-call, or checkraise?

J.R.

03-21-2005, 02:32 PM

bet

Chris Daddy Cool

03-21-2005, 02:36 PM

sorry i effed up this hand. this wasn't the actual board, i only have one pair.

Entity

03-21-2005, 02:37 PM

Hey dude,

What do you mean by "buy the button?" Anyway, I'd bet.

Rob

DMBFan23

03-21-2005, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey dude,

What do you mean by "buy the button?" Anyway, I'd bet.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

check out Tommy Angelo's website for the rule, it's in one of his articles. cool rule.

I favor a checkraise, but I hope the "bet" discussion will enlighten me as to a new line.

Chris Daddy Cool

03-21-2005, 02:42 PM

sup homie,

i'm not sure if you responded to this before or after i fixed the board on my hand. i only have one pair, K7 on a K86 board.

"buying the button" means posting both the big and small blind in first position and being able to play the button the very next hand.

Entity

03-21-2005, 02:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]

i'm not sure if you responded to this before or after i fixed the board on my hand. i only have one pair, K7 on a K86 board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, gonna have to rethink that.

So buying the button means that next hand, you'll be UTG+1 and get to act last? Cool.

DMBFan23

03-21-2005, 02:50 PM

nah, it'd be you (BB + dead), SB, BB, UTG, UTG+1, etc...

basically you're paying an SB for the right to have the button instead of posting in the CO.

Chris Daddy Cool

03-21-2005, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So buying the button means that next hand, you'll be UTG+1 and get to act last? Cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

no man, no.

normally when you sit down at a table you have the option of taking the big blind and then playing the small blind and so forth or posting behind the button in the CO.

buying the button means posting BEHIND the blinds, where you effectively become both the small and big blind for this hand and you are able to be the button the next hand.

Chris Daddy Cool

03-21-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
basically you're paying an SB for the right to have the button instead of posting in the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

you also get to play one more hand that orbit.

Entity

03-21-2005, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So buying the button means that next hand, you'll be UTG+1 and get to act last? Cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

no man, no.

normally when you sit down at a table you have the option of taking the big blind and then playing the small blind and so forth or posting behind the button in the CO.

buying the button means posting BEHIND the blinds, where you effectively become both the small and big blind for this hand and you are able to be the button the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, that makes much more sense. For some reason I thought you were indicating you were posting EP on this one which made me really confused.

The intricacies of live play are still beyond me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

PokerBob

03-21-2005, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
20/40 at the commerce

literally my very first hand at the table, i just got called just sat down and immediately buy the button so no reads on anybody no idea about anything.

CO open limps. button raises. I call with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO calls.

flop: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

bet, check-call, or checkraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am assuming that you posted a big+small between the sb and the button. I am also assuming that the sb and the bb mucked. This means there are going to be 6.5 SB (maybe only 6) in the pot + your SB. I do this cuz I cannot remember how "buying the button" works. I may be way off.

I fold this preflop, but I am a retard postflop especially out of position. You clearly are not.

Why would the CO open-limp? IMO there are 2 possibilites: (a) he has a monster (b) he is retarded. I am going with (b), as he will likely get action if he open-raises from there anyway, as it will clearly look like a steal.

I am assuming button knows that CO is retarded, and thus is raising to isolate him. Button could have a wide range of holdings.

I think I c/r the flop, and lead the turn, hoping to trap the retard in the middle. Unless it goes check, bet, raise, then I have no idea.

J.R.

03-21-2005, 03:17 PM

check-raise

chief444

03-21-2005, 03:33 PM

I'd say check/raise. Although only 3-handed I really don't think it's that much better of an option than either betting out or check/calling the flop. If it were 4-5 handed anything else seems wrong.

xpander

03-21-2005, 04:14 PM

I like to CR. It's SHed but I'm going to protect my backdoor draw and TPBK against an open-limping unknown and a unknow PFRer.

Malificent

03-21-2005, 04:59 PM

Who has the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif? You or the board?

I probably checkraise here - button could have all sorts of holdings and it is likely my K is good - but I'd like to get the CO out of there if possible.

I'm probably wrong, but hey...:)

BigEndian

03-21-2005, 05:45 PM

I'm going to throw in a vote for playing this hand like a pussy. Check, call.

What does the CR get you on a pretty tame board? 3-bet if your behind (or raised in the turn) where you might not feel good about letting the hand go not knowing anything about your opponents. Betting out is similar. If you are ahead, you're likely way ahead, you might even fold your opponent.

- Jim

sthief09

03-21-2005, 05:50 PM

I would check raise any flop here, this one included.

Hoi Polloi

03-21-2005, 05:58 PM

Check raise. See if the bettor is serious. I'm playing these cards only because I happened to post. I want to win it on the flop or get out if I'm played back at here.

gaming_mouse

03-21-2005, 06:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would check raise any flop here, this one included.

[/ QUOTE ]

any flop at all? please explain why you sometimes wouldn't c/fold. eg, if there were an A?

PokerBob

03-21-2005, 06:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would check raise any flop here, this one included.

[/ QUOTE ]

any flop at all? please explain why you sometimes wouldn't c/fold. eg, if there were an A?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cuz this looks like a steal. I have a random hand. I could easily have a big piece of this flop.

gaming_mouse

03-21-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would check raise any flop here, this one included.

[/ QUOTE ]

any flop at all? please explain why you sometimes wouldn't c/fold. eg, if there were an A?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cuz this looks like a steal. I have a random hand. I could easily have a big piece of this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

josh said he would c/r ANY flop, and that was what my question was about -- not this flop in particular. For example, say the flop came all broadway cards. This doesn't seem to me like a good c/r opportunity.

masonx

03-21-2005, 06:42 PM

c/r

PokerBob

03-21-2005, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would check raise any flop here, this one included.

[/ QUOTE ]

any flop at all? please explain why you sometimes wouldn't c/fold. eg, if there were an A?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cuz this looks like a steal. I have a random hand. I could easily have a big piece of this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

josh said he would c/r ANY flop, and that was what my question was about -- not this flop in particular. For example, say the flop came all broadway cards. This doesn't seem to me like a good c/r opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. I should have said "Cuz it looks like a steal." But the other statements are valid for this particular flop.

gaming_mouse

03-21-2005, 07:15 PM

Sorry. I should have said "Cuz it looks like a steal." But the other statements are valid for this particular flop.

Meaning that you want to get called down all the way?

PokerBob

03-21-2005, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry. I should have said "Cuz it looks like a steal." But the other statements are valid for this particular flop.

Meaning that you want to get called down all the way?

[/ QUOTE ]
no

gaming_mouse

03-21-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry. I should have said "Cuz it looks like a steal." But the other statements are valid for this particular flop.

Meaning that you want to get called down all the way?

[/ QUOTE ]
no

[/ QUOTE ]

then why do you want it to look like a steal? won't the effect of that be that you get called down?

PokerBob

03-21-2005, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry. I should have said "Cuz it looks like a steal." But the other statements are valid for this particular flop.

Meaning that you want to get called down all the way?

[/ QUOTE ]
no

[/ QUOTE ]

then why do you want it to look like a steal? won't the effect of that be that you get called down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't clear. The BUTTON's raise looks like a steal, so we c/r him to put the screws to him.

gaming_mouse

03-21-2005, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I wasn't clear. The BUTTON's raise looks like a steal, so we c/r him to put the screws to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, i see. essentially the argument is that the button could have pretty much any two here, so that it will be easy to get him to fold, plus we can expect him to bet.

PokerBob

03-21-2005, 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I wasn't clear. The BUTTON's raise looks like a steal, so we c/r him to put the screws to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, i see. essentially the argument is that the button could have pretty much any two here, so that it will be easy to get him to fold, plus we can expect him to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup. I can't speak for Josh, but I think that may be his reasoning. At least it's mine.

DiamondDave

03-21-2005, 09:51 PM

Easy fold PF, especially in your first hand in a B&M game.
But since you played the hand, consider CRing the flop.

sfer

03-21-2005, 11:29 PM

This is what I told Chris at the time.

Clarkmeister

03-21-2005, 11:46 PM

I like the preflop call, but for those uncomfortable with their postflop play folding is fine. I don't like betting unless you think he is aggressive enough to auto-raise and allow you to 3-bet. Barring that, checkraise and checkcall are close, I tend to like check-call a little more in this spot.

Estydogg

03-21-2005, 11:59 PM

I would check, and hope the middle guy checks. If he does and the button bets I would raise hoping to get the middle guy out.

If the middle guy calls I have to put him on a king, flush draw or open-ended. This will slow me down, and I would check on the turn, and if he checks I put him on a draw.

If the button just calls my 2-bet I would bet all the way thinking I'm good. If he 3 bets, I would probably just call all the way down.

Reasoning: The only raising hands I'm worried about are AA,AK,KQ,KJ(maybe)KK(unlikely if he bets on the flop). But the chances are he has many of the other raising hands and will pay me my 2 big bets.

SA125

03-22-2005, 12:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
no reads on anybody no idea about anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I would check raise any flop here, this one included.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any flop. Wow.

DiamondDave

03-22-2005, 07:16 PM

"I like the preflop call, but for those uncomfortable with their postflop play folding is fine."

Ouch, Clark. Let me try to explain myself better.

The hole cards in question are fine-ish for a preflop call, but I like a fold for metagame reasons. When you first sit down in a B&M game, the other players at the table have a prior belief over the distributions of hands that I will play in a given spot. They then update their beliefs based on what they see me do using something similar to Bayes' Theorem. The first time I show down, I want my hole cards to look nice and premium.

Doing things has a number of beneficial effects, which include getting people to fold hands like bottom pair and gutshot draws on the turn in raised pots.

I'm a young guy, so if I ever want to change my image towards too loose or overaggressive it is easy for me to do so. But acquiring a tight image, for someone who looks like me, is difficult to do unless I take steps to lead my opponents to that conclusion.

Mason has written that having a tight image is good in limit holdem because one doesn't flop enough hands. The ability to win pots uncontested adds a lot to my win rate. The benefits of playing this way are greatly decreased in internet play, IMO. But in B&M games against thinking players, it helps me a lot.

If anyone out there thinks what I'm up to is counterproductive, I'd like to discuss it.

sthief09

03-22-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no reads on anybody no idea about anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I would check raise any flop here, this one included.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any flop. Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, I don't think that the button raising with a very wide range of hands is too big of an assumption. maybe it is. but I think king high is good a lot, and I'd like to get someone to fold a better K high or A high on the turn.

I'm also assuming there are 2 big blinds and a small blind here, which is how buying the button works in most places.

sthief09

03-22-2005, 07:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would check raise any flop here, this one included.

[/ QUOTE ]

any flop at all? please explain why you sometimes wouldn't c/fold. eg, if there were an A?

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry for making such a broad statement without any explanation. there are some flops I wouldn't check raise, but I'm assuming the button is raising very light, and I'm assuming he's capable of folding most A high and all K high on the turn. if these assumptions are correct, I think you're just about making automoney by check raising and leading if it gets headsup. it's really hard to defend against that.

buying the button in this spot = 2 big blinds and a small blind right? or does cdc have to post a big + a dead small? the first right?

sthief09

03-22-2005, 07:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sup homie,

i'm not sure if you responded to this before or after i fixed the board on my hand. i only have one pair, K7 on a K86 board.

"buying the button" means posting both the big and small blind in first position and being able to play the button the very next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

that seems a lot less appealing than posting in the CO for 1 sb

Clarkmeister

03-23-2005, 12:57 AM

I'm totally convinced that Mason is wrong about the benefits of a tight image but that's a whole nother discussion. I only added the disclaimer to avoid having people yell at me for telling newbies to call with the hand preflop but there's no way I'm folding. It's simply too much hand in that spot. Screw the metagame considerations, give me the +EV hand I was just dealt and let me play it.