Big pot - JJ overplayed (?) [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Roy6

03-21-2005, 12:05 PM

The table is passive and isn't aggressive. I was surprised there were 2 cold callers, I don't know if the preflop 3-bet is OK? With so many players my plan was to muck this hand if the flop is K/A high without a Jack & unsure what to do if Q-high (comments?). I think the flop raise is fine and after I was 3-bet I thought I'll muck if I don't turn a J. Basically the preflop cap could mean TT-AA, all of them beat me and I don't think AK would go that far when completely missed the board. Then I decided to call this down as I tend to overplay big PPs.. Is it really that insane?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+1 3-bets, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls, SB folds.

River: (16.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

Brian462

03-21-2005, 12:17 PM

Looks fine to me.

Preflop 3-bet is a no brainer I think. Then on the flop you can play around with the idea of capping it, but I think I prefer to just call the 3-bet and call down.

I don't think you overplayed this and I can't imagine even coming close to folding this at any point in the hand.

Bluffoon

03-21-2005, 12:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The table is passive and isn't aggressive. I was surprised there were 2 cold callers, I don't know if the preflop 3-bet is OK? With so many players my plan was to muck this hand if the flop is K/A high without a Jack & unsure what to do if Q-high (comments?). I think the flop raise is fine and after I was 3-bet I thought I'll muck if I don't turn a J. Basically the preflop cap could mean TT-AA, all of them beat me and I don't think AK would go that far when completely missed the board. Then I decided to call this down as I tend to overplay big PPs.. Is it really that insane?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+1 3-bets, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls, SB folds.

River: (16.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Was it capped preflop or not?

Either way I just call the flop. You have a lot larger equity advantage on the turn when the undercard falls. Raise the turn.

Roy6

03-21-2005, 12:41 PM

Preflop UTG+1 only called my 3-bet.
I raised the flop, because there are a bunch of scare cards (Q, K, A) and I don't want people to chase 2 pairs and the bicycle str8. After I was 3-bet on the flop, what hand do you put UTG+1 on that I could beat? ATs or 99 maybe?
There are some people out there who don't cap preflop with QQ, KK or even AA.

Bluffoon

03-21-2005, 12:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop UTG+1 only called my 3-bet.
I raised the flop, because there are a bunch of scare cards (Q, K, A) and I don't want people to chase 2 pairs and the bicycle str8. After I was 3-bet on the flop, what hand do you put UTG+1 on that I could beat? ATs or 99 maybe?
There are some people out there who don't cap with QQ, KK or even AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all those scare cards and two cards to come against a large field you have only a small equity advantage on the flop and all your opponents are correct to call (and will) even with just overcards. That is why it is better to wait for the turn. If an overcard falls you can gauge the action and fold if necessary without making a major investment in the hand. In this case a safe card fell and your equity advantage is now much larger and your opponents will be making a big mistake calling two bets with their overcards or draws.

You can't play every hand like your opponent has the nuts. I am not going to be convinced that my opponent has an overpair to my JJ until I am reraised on the turn., especially since they didn't cap the flop. (and if they didn't that is a huge mistake for them)

Fat Nicky

03-21-2005, 12:50 PM

capping the flop is a viable option following a call down if UTG+1 bets into us on the turn. Lately, i am less and less convinced that my overpairs are behind after aggressive flop play, i usually like the turn to convince me i'm behind...

Roy6

03-21-2005, 12:54 PM

OK, let's assume I only call the flop and the turn is
1/ A
2/ K
3/ Q

UTG+1 bets again and it's folded to me, what's my plan? (If there are callers I think I'll have to fold)
If it is checked to me, do I bet out?

CMonkey

03-21-2005, 12:55 PM

If the opponent is passive like the rest of the table, the weak-tight demon in me wants to cap the flop and fold if UTG+1 bets out on the turn figuring I'm behind a higher PP. If UTG+1 calls my flop cap and checks, I bet the turn if no overcards fall. But you'd need to have an extremely accurate read of UTG+1 to play a line like this.

Your line is probably correct. After UTG+1's flop 3-bet, we're staring at a 13.5BB pot and it costs us 2.5BB to call down. This assumes neither SB nor MP2 wake up and starting betting it up. With UTG+1's expected bets on the turn and river, that's 6.2:1 to call down (15.5BB:2.5BB, need to win 14% of the time). The two available J outs nab you a set by the river 8.5% of the time already. If calling down here is a mistake (I cheated and know for sure UTG+1 has AA), it's certainly a very minor one.

Bluffoon

03-21-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
capping the flop is a viable option following a call down if UTG+1 bets into us on the turn. Lately, i am less and less convinced that my overpairs are behind after aggressive flop play, i usually like the turn to convince me i'm behind...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are playing against me and I have you beat here I am checkraising you on the turn after you cap the flop.

Fat Nicky

03-21-2005, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
capping the flop is a viable option following a call down if UTG+1 bets into us on the turn. Lately, i am less and less convinced that my overpairs are behind after aggressive flop play, i usually like the turn to convince me i'm behind...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are playing against me and I have you beat here I am checkraising you on the turn after you cap the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

in that case, you've convinced me that i'm beat and i'd lay my hand down.

Bluffoon

03-21-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, let's assume I only call the flop and the turn is
1/ A
2/ K
3/ Q

UTG+1 bets again and it's folded to me, what's my plan? (If there are callers I think I'll have to fold)
If it is checked to me, do I bet out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heads up I would lean towards calling down depending on my opponent but I don't think it would be a bad fold against a tighter opponent. You might also want to raise and fold to a three bet planning to check through the river if just called. This would cost the same as calling down and give you some fold equity. If it is checked to me I bet and fold to a raise.

PokerBob

03-21-2005, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The table is passive and isn't aggressive. I was surprised there were 2 cold callers, I don't know if the preflop 3-bet is OK? With so many players my plan was to muck this hand if the flop is K/A high without a Jack & unsure what to do if Q-high (comments?). I think the flop raise is fine and after I was 3-bet I thought I'll muck if I don't turn a J. Basically the preflop cap could mean TT-AA, all of them beat me and I don't think AK would go that far when completely missed the board. Then I decided to call this down as I tend to overplay big PPs.. Is it really that insane?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+1 3-bets, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls, SB folds.

River: (16.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I cap the flop, but that is not mandatory and may be a bit LAGgish. The rest is standard. I am assuming that you lost, but I can't find a fold anywhere here.

ni han

That guy

03-21-2005, 01:51 PM

do you have any kind of profile on UTG+1?

I think you are just trapped in this hand hoping he has AK or a loose AQ player. If you have some kind of read on him that is a different story...

The pot is too big to fold and so I would get a raise in on the flop and call down after that. Or you could raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet... but that decision is probably pretty close. In calling down, you get to see what he has and it costs the same as raising the turn.

You are probably beat but without a read, he has AK at least some of the time here and with all that money in the pot, you just can't fold.

CMonkey

03-21-2005, 02:07 PM

I'd think UTG+1 would have to be ultra-LAGgy to 3-bet the flop with only AK or AKs. My first thought was that if we are in fact ahead on the flop, we're beating ATs club/diamond and after it seems like everyone's going to see the turn, UTG+1 goes ahead and makes it three bets. Still much more likely we're behind to QQ or KK of course (or TT if UTG+1 is aggressive preflop).

That guy

03-21-2005, 04:20 PM

Still much more likely we're behind to QQ or KK of course (or TT if UTG+1 is aggressive preflop).

Yes this seems right. I just don't see how you can lay this down with 15 bets in the pot... its going to cost you 2 more to win 17. You will suck-out on the river about 5% of the time... so are you good 5% of time here? Maybe, maybe not. But if you have any kind of a loose read on him, you just can't afford to let this pot be wrongfully awarded elsewhere...

meep_42

03-21-2005, 04:29 PM

I don't think Hero can protect this hand on the turn, most of the opponents will be trapped and won't fold for a 2nd BB after calling 1 (but if it gets 3-bet by UTG+1, they will, but you'll almost certainly be behind then.). I like the flop play, give your opponents a reason to fold the first time around on the turn.

I probably cap the flop and call down once MP2 folds on the turn.

-d

ErrantNight

03-21-2005, 04:57 PM

cap the flop. if he leads again on the turn you have a tough decision: raise or call. i think against an unknown there are merits to both.

you reference a preflop cap... i don't see one... was there one and the converter missed it? or are you on crack?