Poker Ethics.

[CardSharpCook]

This possibility was brought to my attention watching the end of the WSOP satelitte in which 2 trouts were sitting at the same table - one, on the brink of elimination. Is it ethical to dump chips to a friend? How would it work? Player A raises the BB, Player B then goes all-in, Player A folds even though it might be to his advantage to call. There is no communication btwn the players A and B. They may have a prearranged understanding, or they may both decide it is a good idea at the time, and understand what the other is thinking. But there is no discussion of the hand, no verbal (or written) communication.


My suggestion is mild collusion, sure. A chip dump that is neither planned nor promised, but given because asked for (in the way that chips talk) by a friend. Of course, in this situation, the asking would be wrong as MLG didn't really have the chips to dump. <shrug>

Interesting area of poker ethics - do we always have to make the +EV decision when playing friends? Have you ever dumped a hand to a friend? Of course, maybe the +EV decision is to make dumps like this because were we in the same situation, the friend would do the same for us.... So then, is it ethical to make such an unspoken (or spoken) deal considering that it will be to your advantage while hurting every other player in the tourney? Would this be as unethical as letting a friend cut in line at the cafeteria (that always pissed me off)? More so because money is involved? <shrug> any thoughts?

I believe that this is ok. I believe that player A is sacrificing a pot that would be his as well as sacrificing the chips he put in the pot to make the steal. While it may be that giving away his chips will hurt the other players in the tourney, the direct effect is to hurt his own chances while helping a friend. These are chips that player A has accrued and he may spend them as he wishes. In the Cafeteria example, the place in line is not his to give - he is stealing from a dozen other strangers by letting his friend cut (it would be ok to give your friend your place in line or to switch places). But in this example I think it is ok.

Thoughts?

CSC

Side note: In the observed situation, Player A did not have the chips to spare. Were he to have made a chip dump, both trouts would have been fighting to hang on to that last spot.

[Lurshy]

Collusion at any level is clearly no good, trout or ortherwise.

We don't know the stack sizes of what you witnessed, but could it at all have been a steal attempt gone awry? Was BB so short stacked that he was pot committed with his blind post, and had no real folding equity with his reraise? What you suspect as chip dumping, could easily have been a feeble attempt at a steal. JMHO

[Stipe_fan]

I actually look up the exact meaning, fyi

:secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose


This is such a gray area. If it was prearranged, yes it is collusion and is not right. If the person acrossed the table winks or taps his finger, it is collusion. But, if a friend raises another friends blinds and he *senses* it's a dump, well, I really can't say it is collusion. If the players involved did not signal or prearrange a dump, it's not collusion. It is just another player knowing how the other plays.

In the case of last nights tournament, again, MLG did not have enough chips to do this. If he had the chips, ??????????.

Definitely an intriguing post. It really has me thinking about other MTT players on Party that post regularly. Would I, could I, should I, dump chips if I am healthy to a fellow 2+2er?

Honestly, I am more ethicial than most and probably would not do it. I feel deep down inside that it is not right. If other players do it, again I don't think it is collusion, assuming it is NOT prearranged. I just don't think I would do it.

Stipe

[Percula]

I have stayed out of pots where friends were in before.

Example;

We are at the final table, 8 handed, my friend is two to my right and short stacked, I am 3rd in chips. I consider my friend an excellent player. He raises UTG+1 to 2.5xBB, it folds to me and I have AT. His raise stinks of steal. I feel I have a better hand and have a very good chance of him folding if I come over the top. I folded, as did everyone else.

I asked him about the hand after the finish. He had nothing and was stealing and would have layed it down to me. He asked why I did not come over the top on him. I told him it was simple...

It was to my benifit to keep him at the table as long as I could. The other players were waiting for a monster and hopeful they could just fold their way up the payout ladder. With the both of us being aggressive and not allowing anyone into a hand without a very good hand. This would allow me to accumilate more chips and finish higher. As it turned out, it worked, we both finished in the top three.

If the situation was reversed and I had raised and he came over the top, I would have folded to him, for the same reason, I want him at the table, one aggressive jerk at the final is just not enough with a bunch of passive players just looking to move up the ladder. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If it is pre-arranged, it is collusion and mild or not, it is still unethical - even to a friend. If the bigger stack decided on his own, then it is his prerogative to soft play which probably was the case in this hand but may still be to the detriment of other players.

Coincidentally, just last night, we are on the bubble of a lively, good-natured bantering 30+3. The big blind had only about 390 and cannot cover the full 400. CO typed "Be nice, SB" and folded, so did the button. SB who had a healthy stack folded then typed "I had A9o". A few hands later, the bubble guy quadrupled to 1560, won a couple of small pots, then doubled, busting a player in the process and was now a threat to the table. To cut a long story short, the bubble guy outlasted the compassionate "Be-nice" guy and the generous SB apologetically typing "I swear, I will never do that again".

[Karak567]

One time in a live home-game, I re-raised someone from the button with AA. The guy I re-raised was a good friend (as were ALL the people we were playing with, as it was a home game obviously) and he comes over the top all-in. He knows my play style better than anyone there and he knows I would re-raise with nothing less than KK. I call and he flips 56s. My AA holds and he goes home. As he is walking out he whispers to me (I dumped those to you on purpose, I want you to win tonight).

I was actually REALLY pissed off about it, because I am pretty anal when it comes to poker ethics. I felt like I was playing with dirty chips, it put me on tilt and I busted out 5 hands later on a moronic play. I would have not felt right if I had won that tournament, knowing someone intentionally dumped me chips.

I politely asked him to never do that again, and he got angry and did not understand why it upset me so much.

I just don't think it's cool to chip dump.

[MLG]

Let me put this very very simply. In a tournament situation you have an obligation to treat all opponents equally. If I were to fold my hand to an all-in that would not be collusion. However, if it was a close decision, and I folded because I liked the other trout and wanted him to make it, that would be unethical. Is it provable? No. Is it wrong? Yes. Making decisions in a tournament based on anything other than poker reasons is cheating. End of story.

[Stipe_fan]

Nice response MLG. I feel ethics is huge since we do play in cyberspace. I would hate to have some site say some 2+2ers practice collusion. I am glad to hear we agree that collusion is categorically wrong.

BTW, nice job MLG in the WSOP qualifier!!!!

Stipe

[MLG]

ty. i think any form of collusion is truly horrible and intolerable, and to be perfectly honest I hate having my name associated with it, even in an example like this.

[Double Eagle]

I agree that CSC's original example is completely inappropriate, but it seems to me that there are many grey areas which can occur. Is it not natural to avoid playing pots against your friends, and when does this form of soft-playing turn into collusion?

Consider this hand from my Live Tourney trip report a while back:
We are playing four handed and I am the chip leader with 85k. My friend Peter is in the SB with 45k and is 3rd in chips. I am on a rush and I know Peter is itching to stop my momentum.....

On the next hand I get A8 on the button, I put a raise to 12k in, half expecting Peter to move in on me with almost any two, as he knows that I probably won't call the extra 30k without a really big hand. He does and he's right as I go ahead and fold, but make sure that he knows he better find a taxi back to San Jose. After we're done he tells me he had JT there but I'm not unhappy with the laydown as I don't see any reason to get involved in a huge pot at this point with the 4th place guy (Mr. 42) pretty low.

Looking back, I have to be honest and say if I have the same read on someone else I might be tempted to call here - but the fact that Peter is my friend may have tipped the balance and turned what was a fairly tough decision into an easy fold.

Comments?

[Cleveland Guy]

This is different.

Even with AT - you are possibly only 60/40 against him.

If you want to keep the "payout bubble" in your favor and keep stealing, then folding is the best move.

You just used the fact that you knew the guy and his playing style to your advantage, but from the way you wrote it, if I was playing aggressive and you didn't know me, you'd probably do the same thing.

[Prime Time]

I would have been happier if you left it at "I don't see any reason to get involved in a huge pot at this point with the 4th place guy" and left it at that.

I wish CSC did not start this thread and wonder how this topic entered his mind.

[Ulysses]

cheating

this
and your other post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tourn&Number=1972159&Forum =,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=19 69678&Search=true&where=&Name=23947&daterange=&new erval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#P ost1972159)
make me sick

[Double Eagle]

Pretending this (potential) problem does not exist does not make it go away.

Check out Barry Greenstein's post from earlier this year on the subject Here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1426846&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)


I merely question where the line should be drawn. How clearly "right" does the play have to be before you are obligated to make it?

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
This possibility was brought to my attention watching the end of the WSOP satelitte in which 2 trouts were sitting at the same table - one, on the brink of elimination. Is it ethical to dump chips to a friend? How would it work? Player A raises the BB, Player B then goes all-in, Player A folds even though it might be to his advantage to call. There is no communication btwn the players A and B. They may have a prearranged understanding, or they may both decide it is a good idea at the time, and understand what the other is thinking. But there is no discussion of the hand, no verbal (or written) communication.


My suggestion is mild collusion, sure. A chip dump that is neither planned nor promised, but given because asked for (in the way that chips talk) by a friend. Of course, in this situation, the asking would be wrong as MLG didn't really have the chips to dump. <shrug>

Interesting area of poker ethics - do we always have to make the +EV decision when playing friends? Have you ever dumped a hand to a friend? Of course, maybe the +EV decision is to make dumps like this because were we in the same situation, the friend would do the same for us.... So then, is it ethical to make such an unspoken (or spoken) deal considering that it will be to your advantage while hurting every other player in the tourney? Would this be as unethical as letting a friend cut in line at the cafeteria (that always pissed me off)? More so because money is involved? <shrug> any thoughts?

I believe that this is ok. I believe that player A is sacrificing a pot that would be his as well as sacrificing the chips he put in the pot to make the steal. While it may be that giving away his chips will hurt the other players in the tourney, the direct effect is to hurt his own chances while helping a friend. These are chips that player A has accrued and he may spend them as he wishes. In the Cafeteria example, the place in line is not his to give - he is stealing from a dozen other strangers by letting his friend cut (it would be ok to give your friend your place in line or to switch places). But in this example I think it is ok.

Thoughts?

CSC

Side note: In the observed situation, Player A did not have the chips to spare. Were he to have made a chip dump, both trouts would have been fighting to hang on to that last spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the table dynamics, Mike could have stolen from the 5 guys to his left with relative safety. I, however, could not.

It's funny how my best marginal hands of the sequence were all when Mike raised my BB, and I figured that I was probably getting called. Appreantly it was only the case maybe one of the three times, but at the time I wasn't going to blow it by trying it.

[sdplayerb]

i would have been extremely pissed had my name been brought up like yours was.

congrats on last night. i watched much from when it got down to 22 players. you completely dominated it. others should learn from that how to play in a supersat, that you can put so much pressure on others and pickup chips.
If anybody wanted to RR you, they would be putting their whole tourney at risk, while you never were. as you know.

was your thinking on the KQ reraise hand that he just couldn't call you without AA, KK since he didn't need the pot to make it AND that he knew that (many don't)?

SD

[MLG]

Thanks. That was a really interesting hand for me. I had reached the point where i needed chips. Given my chips stack, about 16-17BBs, and the way the table had been playing, I was convinced that any hand I played here I needed to push. Given that, it was much more preferable to push over a raise than open push since there would be a better risk/reward ration. The player who I pushed on was the logical candidate because he was open raising fairly frequently. So, I had already decided the next time he opened and I had something resembling a hand I was pushing. I got sort of unlucky in that he picked up a hand that was very strong there, however, I got very lucky that he was a good player and could fold that hand. I'm still not 100% convinced that thats a definite fold with QQ, but its certainly very very close. I figured he would be good enough to fold most of the hands he opens with there though.

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
this
and your other post
make me sick

[/ QUOTE ]


what he said, just in non-poetic form.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
. I am glad to hear we agree that collusion is categorically wrong.



[/ QUOTE ]

Is it wrong to kill little children, or to rape women?

Please, I need to know for sure.

[sdplayerb]

let's reverse things. had you raised with QQ there, would you call a reraise? obviously in a regular tourney that is any easy call.
i can't perfectly remember the specifics, he had around 70K? And you were around 30?
So to reverse it, you with QQ loses, you are down to 40K and back in the danger zone.
Against even one over card (well one not including a Q, but maybe even so), wouldn't you want to fold as you are close to being able to blind your way in/steal just a few times?

If you agree, (and i think this has been brought up), shouldn't somebody in the 20-25K range have stood up to you since at any point it was extremely unlikely you could call, even if getting 3-1.

The only problem is you need to be sure the other guy knows what he is doing and knows how to play.
I was lucky last night and made the $650 round as there were players that completely did not.

SD

[MLG]

the numbers were closer to 50 for him, 25 for me. If its 70-30 I think its a call as even with 40 your in the top 10 in very good shape. I wouldnt have pushed if he had 70. At 50-25 I think the fold is right, since losing puts you in severe danger.

Yes somebody should have stood up to me and I would have folded getting 3:1, although I'm not sure how big a hand i would have folded.

[squallA964]

I was involved in a weird situation last week. My friends and I were told about a weekly multi, so we decided to go play. I finish 4th and they don't place. With about 8 people left in the multi, they decide to grab a few people to start a single table tourney on the side. I was shortstacked, so I bought into that one too and just told them to blind me out til I got done with the multi. I sit down and the 2nd hand I play I win a huge pot, knocking 3 people out to become the chip leader. It gets down to 4 handed, top 3 pays. It's us 3 and somebody we don't know.

All of a sudden, my friend sitting to my left quotes the Atlantic City scene from Rounders...."we could have stayed home and done this," and I knew what he was getting at....in that scene, Matt Damon says they weren't colluding with each other, but it's not like they were playing hard against each other either, with the tourists there.

We ended up finishing top 3 for the money, but I was uncomfortable with the fact that he even said it. When thoughts like that enter your head, you can't play the same way, no matter how much you think you can. If your friends are sitting at the same poker table with you, they have to be your enemies as far as cards are concerned. Be friendly, but as it affects competition, it has to be every person for themselves.

[CardSharpCook]

I am sorry that I started this topic. First, using let me apoligize to Bugstud and MLG. Second, let me apoligize to the board for bringing up a sensetive topic. Third, I'll be taking a break from posting here: a few of my recent posts (hell, every topic I start) seems to bring too many bad feelings - negative responses, and I really do hate causing that emotion in people.

This topic/idea entered my mind not because of anything I saw Bugstud or MLG do or say, but simply because I was watching the tourney and really wanted Bugstud to make it! If I were at that table and were in a position to do so, I would definately consider dumping. However, Ethics have always been an area of intense study for me, and what is "right" is not always clear. I brought this problem to the board so that it might be an examined issue. This was a bad idea.

Again, no hard feelings, please.

CSC

[Double Eagle]

The actual numbers were 45k-21k. It was very apparent what you were doing here and this fact makes for a very interesting multi-level problem. He knows that he has a stronger hand than you are expecting, and your re-raising standards are going to be correspondingly lower. He's going to be a fairly prohibitive favorite over your range of hands as a result.

Yes, if he calls and folds he still has a decent stack, but his table position, with the big stack and you to his immediate left means he will not have an easy time stealing, even with his still-comfortable stack. While his stack was comfortable, he was not anywhere near post-and fold mode, where if he calls all in and wins he can sit out the rest of the way. In fact as it turned out, he was re-raised multiple times after that (holding much weaker hands) and came very close to being the bubble boy himself. Finally, if he calls and loses he is on the bubble, but far from crippled.

I think it's a close call, but given all of the above it's probably a mistake to fold.

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
It was very apparent what you were doing here and this fact makes for a very interesting multi-level problem. He knows that he has a stronger hand than you are expecting, and your re-raising standards are going to be correspondingly lower. He's going to be a fairly prohibitive favorite over your range of hands as a result.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is the exact reason that when I was at 16/17 BB I started open pushing. I didn't want to be faced with a reraiser pushing over a hand I would be forced to call with like AK, QQ, JJ.

[Double Eagle]

If he had opened for say 5BB you can't make this move, correct?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were at that table and were in a position to do so, I would definately consider dumping.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I brought this problem to the board so that it might be an examined issue. This was a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

the question is not bad
something else is what makes me sad
that this is clearly cheating
has been explained to you
yet it still remains
something you might do

[MLG]

im not sure. I still think I have a lot of FE. if I interpret the big raise as meaning a big hand then obviously I fold, but im not sure i would have interpreted it that way.

[Double Eagle]

Trying to come up with a line for the raiser that gets some value out of the fact that he holds QQ and not just any two cards worth opening with (which for him were many combinations.) Very interesting problem....

[MLG]

yeah it is, and its one of the reasons that sats drive me nuts. i dont think there is one. at this point cards have very little to do with how you should play.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I were at that table and were in a position to do so, I would definately consider dumping.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I brought this problem to the board so that it might be an examined issue. This was a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

the question is not bad
something else is what makes me sad
that this is clearly cheating
has been explained to you
yet it still remains
something you might do

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

Come on man, you HAVE to see that dumping chips is cheating - period. You don't need to have studied ethics to realize that.

Even worse, if you do try that, you're not only jeopardizing your own chances of making it, but you're hurting the other guy's chances as well if someone reports you. The sites DO take that stuff seriously, and you're risking your own seat by even thinking about doing something underhanded.

I don't care what the stakes are, if I'm at a table, I'm trying to bust my buddy just as much as the unknown guy sitting next to me. It's the only way to play poker. Read Schaefer and colson's trip reports from the France tournament. Those guys were playing for big bucks, and they were trying to beat each other's brains out when they tangled in a hand.

The only way my play would change if I was in a satellite situation, is that if a friend or a 2+2er was at the table, they might have a slight amount of additional folding equity from me, but it would be solely from the fact that I know they aren't some donk, so I'd have to take their hand seriously.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah it is, and its one of the reasons that sats drive me nuts. i dont think there is one. at this point cards have very little to do with how you should play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd also like to say that you guys are having a great discussion here within this thread, and it deserves it's own dedicated thread! Interesting stuff.

[MLG]

I'm actually wondering if Bugstud might not have had less FE against me so as to avoid the appearence of impropriety. It was a thought that occurred to me at the time. In very close decisions its difficult to tell how the mind works in these conundrums.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually wondering if Bugstud might not have had less FE against me so as to avoid the appearence of impropriety. It was a thought that occurred to me at the time. In very close decisions its difficult to tell how the mind works in these conundrums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. So you're saying that in the moment, if it was a close call, that you might be slightly MORE likely to call him, so no one would think that you're dumping? I hadn't considered that thought.

I think in the end, if I'm ever in that situation, I'm just not going to worry about it, because if I have to make a fold in a situation like that, it's going to be pretty easy to show that it's not collusion, if ever questioned on it.

[MLG]

basically if your in this situation you try your hardest not to let any personal feelings for an opponent impact your play. so, I like to think I would say to myself, how would I act if theoretical player X who played the same way as the guy I know made the play. Then act accordingly.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
basically if your in this situation you try your hardest not to let any personal feelings for an opponent impact your play. so, I like to think I would say to myself, how would I act if theoretical player X who played the same way as the guy I know made the play. Then act accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I gotcha. The fact that it's a 2+2er would only make me think a little harder about what the right move is.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually wondering if Bugstud might not have had less FE against me so as to avoid the appearence of impropriety. It was a thought that occurred to me at the time. In very close decisions its difficult to tell how the mind works in these conundrums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. So you're saying that in the moment, if it was a close call, that you might be slightly MORE likely to call him, so no one would think that you're dumping? I hadn't considered that thought.

I think in the end, if I'm ever in that situation, I'm just not going to worry about it, because if I have to make a fold in a situation like that, it's going to be pretty easy to show that it's not collusion, if ever questioned on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

also, that I might be moving in light vecause I view him as more likely to fold than the rest of the table

[PukaPlaya]

I have actually been thinking about this very problem alot lately.

I have a friend who plays only live and he is always telling me about how collusion is going on all the time. He won't play online because he feels it would be that much easier for people to do it without the fear of getting caught by fellow players or the eye in the sky. I think he is paranoid regarding live play and super paranoid about online play but it does make one think.

I personally think it would be obvious cheating to do what you have described but I imagine it does happen periodically. Most of us have probably heard rumours, some of which Dan N. wrote about on RGP regarding chip dumping and one of the highest profile players.

For your situation to work you need to be sitting at the same table within a couple of seats of each other and then get heads up. The instance you described would be very situational and would require nearly as much luck as getting a good hand to double up with anyway. Of course that also brings up the controversy of having stakes in players in the same tourney. In which case there is no spoken arrangment but you figure giving a staked medium stack your short stacked chips ensures the medium stack cashes and you open up a whole new can of worms.

I think Barry Shulman had an article in Cardplayer recently about this coming up.

IN ANY CASE STOP WATCHING TILT!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Farscape Rules!

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually wondering if Bugstud might not have had less FE against me so as to avoid the appearence of impropriety. It was a thought that occurred to me at the time. In very close decisions its difficult to tell how the mind works in these conundrums.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is exactly why I brought up the hand earlier in this thread. It was only after looking back on it that I realize that subconsciously this may have affected, if not my ultimate decision, at least the ease with which I made it. I would hate to think that the mere appearance of conflict would force me to make a close decision that might very well be EV- upon more thorough analysis.

Edited to Add: But I also would like to stay as far away from "the line" as is humanly possible....

[PukaPlaya]

[ QUOTE ]
All of a sudden, my friend sitting to my left quotes the Atlantic City scene from Rounders...."we could have stayed home and done this," and I knew what he was getting at....in that scene, Matt Damon says they weren't colluding with each other, but it's not like they were playing hard against each other either, with the tourists there.

We ended up finishing top 3 for the money, but I was uncomfortable with the fact that he even said it. When thoughts like that enter your head, you can't play the same way, no matter how much you think you can. If your friends are sitting at the same poker table with you, they have to be your enemies as far as cards are concerned. Be friendly, but as it affects competition, it has to be every person for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play in a weekly home game tourney as well and while I would prefer to see a friend win as opposed to a stranger, if looks like I am not going to cash I sure as hell am not dumping to him or softplaying. Poker is war and everyone at the table is my enemy when it comes to the game. Of course there will always be players who don't think they measure up and feel they need an edge which is why poker was always a game that was played in the shadows or with guns and knives on the table lol.

No String Bets Beeyatch!

There will always be guys who try and cheat and angle shoot, it's the nature of the beast.

All we can do is let them know that it won't be tolerated.

[sdplayerb]

yw..i'm glad i brought it up.

[yoadrians]

Kind of off-subject, but my wife and I had some friends in town over the weekend for dinner. At dinner, I was talking poker with my buddy, blah blah blah, and a woman at the table said:

"Boy, I sure hope you guys don't play online poker. It's so suspect."

Curious, I asked her what she meant. She replied:

"Well, you know, people who are friends totally help each other cheat to win money."

I ask her if she knows anyone who does.

"Oh, yeah, my brother and all his friends play on Party Poker or something. They all get at the same table and talk on the phone about what they have and take everyone's money. Then, they split it up later."

I ask her where the guys are from.

"They're all from UW-Whitewater (in Wisconsin)."

So, if I get her brother's name, anyone up for a, uh, road trip?!?!?

I think the thing that bothered me the most is that she thought it was funny and was laughing about it until I told her how seriously WRONG it was.

Then, embarassed, she said,

"Well, I don't think my brother does it himself. But his friends all do."

Uh huh. Sure.

[stabn]

He picked the right nickname then.