HEPFAP's ADVICE: Heads up on the flop vs a preflop raiser

[cartman]

With regard to heads up play on the flop when you have defended in the blind vs a steal raise, HEPFAP says on page 193:

<font color="blue">"You will flop a pair approximately one third of the time, a straight draw about 8 percent of the time, and you should have two overcards in the neighborhood of 10 percent of the time. That brings us to 50 percent, which is not enough against a very aggressive player who is automatically going to try to steal. Our advice is to pretend that the top card isn't there! Take it off the board, or turn it into a deuce in your mind, and see if you would still play. In other words if you have the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif and the flop is
A/images/graemlins/club.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif just change it to 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif. If you do this you should be at approximately the right strategy for playing against super aggressive players who constantly take the pot odds on a steal or a semi-steal. (You would play in this spot since you have two "overcards" and a backdoor straight draw.)</font>


I play in this fashion versus a psychopath who is capable of raising preflop with absolutely anything, but I never call this flop versus aggressive but sane players. I am embarrassed to say that I often fold this flop when the board actually is 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif (I changed the 9 to 7 to remove the backdoor draw) . I reason that his hand is probably better than Q high and I will have to fold on the turn if I don't catch a pair. So I would have to pay 1 small bet and the pot is currently 5.4 small bets. If I am going to fold 87.2% of the time (41/47) on the turn, this seems like a bad idea since I can't be terribly confident I am in front even I do catch a pair.

Should I be calling instead in my example?

Should I follow the HEPFAP advice against aggressive but sane players? (say PFR% of 15 to 20)

What about against players who are less aggressive preflop but who will still autobet the flop? (say PFR% of 10 to 15)

Please verbally assault me if it is in order. If this advice is accurate I am folding WAY too many flops.

Thanks,
Cartman

[J.R.]

--Should I be calling instead in my example?

yes, on the flop

-Should I follow the HEPFAP advice against aggressive but sane players? (say PFR% of 15 to 20)

generally not if the top card is an ace

--What about against players who are less aggressive preflop but who will still autobet the flop? (say PFR% of 10 to 15)

more so when the flop has an A

--Please verbally assault me if it is in order. If this advice is accurate I am folding WAY too many flops.

probably, and you can even check-raies sometimes too

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]

--What about against players who are less aggressive preflop but who will still autobet the flop? (say PFR% of 10 to 15)

more so when the flop has an A



[/ QUOTE ]

This is a surprise to me. I would think that the less frequent preflop raiser would be more likely to have and Ace than the more frequent raiser (given that he raised). What am I missing?

Thanks,
Cartman

[kiddo]

If u defend from BB and flop is only rags u should pretty often bet into preflopraiser. He knows u will call with many trash handds like, Q7s and A3o and 65s, so a ragflop is yours and high cards are his, at least thats how I think about it when I dont hit flop.

What HEFAP says goes for him to, he will hit a pair or a draw or overcards 50%. Rest he will not know what to do if u bet into him so try yo estimate which flops are more likely to be those he is not hit by.

If other player is loose I really dont like the checkraisebluff with Q high on flop because he will so often call your turnbet (and always vall flop) that u will never know where u are. Against a tighter players its ok from time to time.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
-Should I follow the HEPFAP advice against aggressive but sane players? (say PFR% of 15 to 20)

generally not if the top card is an ace

--What about against players who are less aggressive preflop but who will still autobet the flop? (say PFR% of 10 to 15)

more so when the flop has an A

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant you should generally not follow HEPFAP's advice if an A flops, and this is more so the tighter the player.

[TJD]

I just "love" all the advice to carry on when you have missed the flop. Let's hope everyone continues to play that way (when we are the stealer).

At 10/20 earlier today, I won many pots (as every day) with a high card having raised preflop against players I have flagged as a BARF "bet at a rag flop".

This bluff is just SO common at 10/20 that you can almost assume it is a bluff even if you do not know the player. Of course once you do, it is rope and dope time.

It is hugely +EV for me and I do hope they don't stop /images/graemlins/smile.gif It would be a great pity just to win 1BB from them. I much prefer the 3.5BB that I normally get.

There was a great disappointment for me today when one guy on his 3rd attempt at Barf (ing) finally twigged what was going on and did NOT bet the river. I had NO idea what to do /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Please do not misunderstand me, I have great respect for many of the posters and the authors but poker when HU is more people than theory. These comments are made without reference to EV. I know that the action is +EV for me, so logically it will be -EV for them.

Why don't you do some scenarios for the EV from deciding to call the raise and taking it forward from there using a range of assumptions about your opponent and his actions?

Of course if the Barf(er) is a thinker, then he will spot that I am a loose caller and will stop Barf (ing) and will then just bet his pair for value and start to win the battle. Then I need to spot he has stopped Barf (ing) and revert to folding... at which point he can start Barf (ing) again until ...... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

T

[schubes]

I think the idea is that you should often bet out with your legitimate hands, rather than always checkraising - and you shouldn't try to "BARF" all the time. You won't be able to have +EV always calling down with A high when a player with a good mix to his actions bets into you.

[TJD]

Of course I won't and that was exactly the point I was making. We cannot just give out blanket advice like "bet when rags come"

However, if people follow that advice blindly and I spot it, I shall be delighted. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

T

[cartman]

What if the flop is Q42 and I have T9. Would you call on that flop (as HEPFAP would apparently recomment)?

Cartman

[kiddo]

As I understood it our poster didnt like to bet if he wasnt hit. When someone tell this poster: "Try to bluff on some flops" its not because they think its +EV always bluffing. Not sure why you start to talk about someone always bluffing?