some overused cliches

[BobboFitos]

I'm a little tired so tonight is an early night. Just saw a few expressions in a couple of posts which really bother me:

1. "dont go broke in unraised pots"

This advice, taken from the pages of super/system, applies to very very deep stack poker. 100x bb does not apply. This is flatout silly advice, and (although I've said this before, sometimes in jest and sometimes as gospel) really is never a good reason behind a fold.

2. "wait for a better spot to win money"

This advice is taken (well, paraphrased from) TPFAP and applies to tournaments greatly. (as the book intended) However the hands on this board are cash games and not tournaments. So there is no such thing as picking a better spot. This is silly. If a situation is pos EV, it's pos EV. If a situation is unclear it may be ok to fold an "edge" because you're not clear whether or not it's positive or negative.

Exception: The only times it may be ok to fold in a spot in order to wait for a better spot might be a B&M session w/ a capped buyin, and a huge fish has a huge stack. And they're not going anywhere. then it's understandable.

Just wanted to clear the air, because I was going to reply to each individual post, but I dont think thats needed.

[zaxx19]

1. "dont go broke in unraised pots"

This advice, taken from the pages of super/system, applies to very very deep stack poker. 100x bb does not apply. This is flatout silly advice, and (although I've said this before, sometimes in jest and sometimes as gospel) really is never a good reason behind a fold.

Hmm....hmmm

If you have just an overpair and this cliche leps you not get busted use it....hmmm hmmm

[BobboFitos]

my friend just pointed out this subject is redundant.indeed.

[flyingmoose]

I'm glad somebody posted this.

The second cliche you listed makes my head hurt every time I read it -- and it's used all the time. Hopefully your post helps lessen my advil budget.

[soah]

1. This is just plain silly. Why should this rule only apply to us? What's wrong with busting fishies in unraised pots? If someone ends up all-in then one person has to lose, and if you play well you should win the majority of the time. I think a better rule would be "make fishies go broke in unraised pots."

2. If a maniac pushes preflop and you hold 33, and I say to "wait for a better spot," are you going to disagree? If so, why? You seem to be under the impression that this phrase is only used to compare two favorable situations, when in reality it is implicitly stating that the current situation is not favorable.

[kurto]

I think the reason some sayings seem cliched is because they've been around a long time... and they've been around a long time because there's merit to them.

The first one hits home for me. When everyone limps in, and someone stupidly limps in with Pocket aces because they wanted to slowplay... and the board flops 7-3-3... the person with the aces better play for a tiny tiny pot, because you know they let someone in cheap with A3.

I hope that makes sense. I should have been asleep 2 hours ago.

[istewart]

Bobby, I wholeheartedly agree with you on the first one. I had an argument with a guy awhile back about it to on these forums, we cleared some stuff up /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The second one is a bit different. In cash games, it is true that +EV = +EV. However, in SSNL there are so many chances to pick your spots that pushing a small edge, while of course netting you profits in the long run, could result in heavy swings and psychological gayness in the short run (i.e. soah's example). That's my only issue with that statement.

[xorbie]

Re: #2 Of course, I would never say "wait for a better spot to win money" .. EV = EV. But there are often times in restricted buy in games that it's good to wait for a better spot. Or if you know you might tilt losing a couple coinflips in a row.

[fimbulwinter]

i think what he's saying and what you are saying are one in the same. he's discussing the aversion to taking very small, very high variance bets (often missed marginal river value bets in real life as one example) and how that's silly when sitting on one or less buyins. you're discussing a situation which is intrinsically -EV as you dominate almost nothing and could be dominated by 11 likely hands.

when people say "this is the best option" they mean that the EV of the situation is good, when they say "wait for a better time" they mean that other concenrns (namely the possible loss of future EV) outweigh what they see as a very slightly long term positive expectation situation. when you use this statement in the context you presented, you're using it wrong, like if i said "never fold a pair of aces" when in fact i meant "never fold a pair of aces before the flop"

fim