3-bet a river c/r?

[shadow29]

I know nothing about SB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, SB calls.

River: (19 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23 BB

[college_boy]

I think you played it right. Three betting would be spewing chips.

[jaxUp]

it can't be too wrong wither way, but FWIW I would have done the same as you did.

[shadow29]

anyone else

[Dave G.]

I would just call this as well. He might have a boat, he doesn't seem to care that he could be up against a flush.

[keikiwai]

I'm not sure, but you're behind 88, TT, or 8Ts, otherwise I don't see how else SB could have realistically got a boat. And TT is not so likely since he probably would have raised.

Compare this to the chance that he has K or Q high flush.

I think it would have to depend on your read, and since you don't have one calling seems ok. But I'm almost tempted to raise.....

results?

Peter.

[shadow29]

results later, after some of the big guns have had their say.

[Catt]

Raise that pre-flop.

The hand looks different after that; but as you played it, I'd raise the flop -- no one ever believes you've flopped a flush and BB and UTG like their hands -- the only overcall you can hope for is from SB; raising the flop can screw you when everyone checks to you on a turn blank, but my view is that the upside of 3-betting this flop tends to outweigh calling with the intention of raising the turn.

I'd like to see how Villains react to the above line before I analyze the turn, but I'd be a little more shy about getting active on the turn if everyone came with me from the flop and lead into me on the turn after the board paired. As you played it, I would probably do the same on turn and river. Sucks with the river raise. Gotta worry about the SB special of 85 (or even quads). You don't have to worry about these hands (in most cases) if you raise pre-flop in these circumstances.

[shadow29]

I guess I could live with raising pf.

I really disagree with raising the flop.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I could live with raising pf.

I really disagree with raising the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop is less clear if you don't raise pre-flop -- I should have been clearer. Even with your line of not raising pre-flop, I think you're better off raising the flop.

In the absence of a raise pre-flop, colcalling this flop and then raising a turn blank is fishy fishy and screams flush. In this case you turned a nice card in the sense that the turn raise looks like you might be raising trips (and somone with Kx /images/graemlins/spade.gif is positively glowing at that point.

If you had 2 or 3 to act behind you, especially if one of those 2 or 3 was not an SB who only had to complete and then acted first by checking, I might like the call going for overcalls and popping the turn. As it is in your hand, the SB is the only possible overcaller, and if the SB flopped a lesser flush, he's not folding.

[bottomset]

yeah I prob don't raise preflop

I doubt you are good 67% of the time on the river after being checkraised .. so I'd just call there

I'd 3bet the flop though

[KDawgCometh]

at first I was gonna say threebet it, but looking over it some more that eight on the turn really perked him up. I think it boated him up. He completes in the SB which could mean almost anything but calling two cold out of position on teh flop screams of strength here, so two pair or a set on the flop is very likely. If he is on a draw wouldn't he just check call here, probably. So the board pairing and him all of a sudden betting out into a scary flop is scary too. I like how you played it and good discipline to not threebet that river becasue he has to know your real strong to cap the turn.

[mungpo]

[ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop is less clear if you don't raise pre-flop -- I should have been clearer. Even with your line of not raising pre-flop, I think you're better off raising the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop is not a very good decision IMO.

[ QUOTE ]

In the absence of a raise pre-flop, colcalling this flop and then raising a turn blank is fishy fishy and screams flush. In this case you turned a nice card in the sense that the turn raise looks like you might be raising trips (and somone with Kx /images/graemlins/spade.gif is positively glowing at that point.


[/ QUOTE ]
Hero is in prime position for a reraise on the turn. I think because hero didn't 3-bet on the flop he got UTG and BB to call a bet on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]

If you had 2 or 3 to act behind you, especially if one of those 2 or 3 was not an SB who only had to complete and then acted first by checking, I might like the call going for overcalls and popping the turn. As it is in your hand, the SB is the only possible overcaller, and if the SB flopped a lesser flush, he's not folding.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand the first part of this sentence. Do you want SB to fold if he has a lesser flush?

[milesdyson]

Just call. His flopped set or ragged two pair turned into a boat - he was just scared of the suited flop. Raising a river lead bet is even close imo, so 3-betting the check raise is overplaying.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is in prime position for a reraise on the turn. I think because hero didn't 3-bet on the flop he got UTG and BB to call a bet on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]
It appears to have worked well because SB led the turn. That's the only reason BB and UTG got trapped. Usually UTG will lead the turn and hero's raise will face everyone with 2 cold. I really don't think it matters much, but I 3-bet this flop. People won't give you credit for it anyway, and a lot of them will stop-n-go thinking you're just betting a single high /images/graemlins/spade.gif, and they won't want to give you a free card.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop is not a very good decision IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. It's close. And it depends on the table and the individuals involved (including Hero's image). Do you think raising A8s is good or bad? Differentiate from A6s, please.

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is in prime position for a reraise on the turn. I think because hero didn't 3-bet on the flop he got UTG and BB to call a bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You assume that everyone calls Hero's 3-bet on the flop (instead of capping), and you assume that they will all check to him on the turn and then just call. Big assumptions. Don't look at the results from this hand to inform your line -- if you did look at this hand's results as informing your decision, how do you square the fact that Hero only called, but that it came 1 bet to him on the turn (and SB the coldcaller led -- surely if Hero had 3-bet the flop, either SB would have still led, or would have check-raised? Again, don't look only at the action in this hand to inform your tactical approach).

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand the first part of this sentence. Do you want SB to fold if he has a lesser flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. If 2 or three others were to act behind and I thought they might call 2 cold, I might be inclined to call the flop raise instead of 3-bet. In this hand, the only player left to act that hadn't already bet or raised this flop was SB -- if we 3-bet, SB is probably folding, but if he flopped a flush I doubt he folds (he might cap, depending on his flush values). If he doesn't have a flush, he's almost certainly folding whether it is 2 or 3 bets to him (he only had to complete on pre-flop and then checked the flop). He's a non-entity -- either he checked a monster and will call regardless of our action or he will fold regardless of our action (in most cases). If he has what he thinks is a monster, we collect more bets when we're ahead. If he folds, we still probably collect three bets (2 from BB and 1 from UTG) and might induce someone to cap. The worst case is that we fold out SB and BB, and only collect 1 bet from UTG. But, the pot is big, we ought to focus on winning it, especially if the downside we risk is winning a slightly smaller pot.

Calling the flop has two real values: (1) going for overcalls behind; or (2) disguising our flopped nut flush. Since (1) is not applicaple, only (2) has value. When Hero calls this flop and then pops most turns, he loses all the advantages of value (2) since everyone will see that he has a flush. There are turn cards that continue to disguise the flopped nut flush (paired board; 4-to-a-straight; a fourth flush card), but when the flop is bet and raised by the first two players, you can usually 3-bet without sending the warning signals up and you can usually generate more action when anything other than a fourth flush card falls on thr turn.

[tiltaholic]

i'm no big gun, but i say:

[ QUOTE ]
Just call. His flopped set or ragged two pair turned into a boat - he was just scared of the suited flop. Raising a river lead bet is even close imo, so 3-betting the check raise is overplaying.

[/ QUOTE ]

[scotty34]

The check-raise seems very suspicious to me. I think every possible hand beating you that he could have at this point, he would have bet the flop, or at least check-raised it.

88 leads out on this flop unquestionably. He has to make the flush draws pay. The same goes for 55 22, 85 and 82. Also in the case of 88, if he made quads, he would let those betting into him continue.

TT would not lead the turn when a second 8 comes and then 3-bet it, as this really is not a sensible play.

That only leaves T8s that is beating you. I think a poorer player with T8 leads the flop thinking he has to protect his hand. Many players would let this one go when it is 2 bets cold back to them. Not everyone though

I would say 3-bet the river, but its very close. T8s is the only hand I can see reasonably that is going to beat you here.

[Shillx]

Okay if you piece together his turn and river play, this is what I can come up with if I were in the SB's shoes:

Lead and 3-bet: 88, 85, 82
Lead and call: Nothing
Check and call: Small flush
Check/raise: Nut flush, 2nd nut flush, 55 and 22

If he has T8 or TT then that is the breaks, but it is hard to put him on those exact hands. I would call the check/raise here (if he plays like I do).

Brad

[scotty34]

I agree with all of that except for your thoughts on TT. I think TT is no more likely than any of the others. When another 8 comes on the turn, why would he open and then 3-bet? With all the betting and calls on the flop, he would have to assume someone has an 8 or a flush at this point. TT is beating neither of these hands currently.

My guess is villain has a small flush, with a slight possibility also going to T8.

[shadow29]

I'll finish reading the thread when I get some time, looks like a good discussion.

So I call the c/r and Villain turns over A5. Yep. Two pair. What a mighty strong hand.

2/4 is great.

[keikiwai]

But he's got TOP KICKER /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I bet you filed that move away in your cannot make predictions on what he's doing, assume he's playing randomly compartment....

[Zoelef]

I'm jamming this pot (flop) until I don't have the nuts anymore (turn) at which point I'm still jamming the pot until I face legitimate counter-agression (SB's "Look at me, I can gambool too" 3-bet on turn) at which point I'm calling down.

That last part is probably biased due to the c/r, but meh.

[jluker7]

Calling is WEAK!

Flop is 3 flush? Yet SB is slowplaying his set?

I am 3 betting the river and probably thinking that SB has weaker flush or trip 8's with a marginal kicker, and is overplaying it since the 4th flush card didn't come.

[bigmac366]

i think i'd just call here, i think he has a boat just as often as he has a lower flush, making the 3-bet a bad play imo because a boat will cap it and that sucks. lower flush might cap too though. i dunno, i probably just call.

[Dead]

I like a call here as well.

[Shillx]

More about this hand...

When you are at the river and 1st to act against someone who likes their hand, you have to consider these important factors:

1) Only bet if you intend on 3-betting. If you are looking to showdown then check/call since the villian will always bet his hand after you check. If you bet, he will call with worse hands and raise better hands so betting is always -EV. So you need a very strong hand to bet (since you have to 3-bet a raise). In this hand, the only hands strong enough to bet against Shadow are 88/TT/85/82/T8.

2) If your hand is too strong to check/call, you should check/raise. If you bet, you will get called by worse hands and raised by better hands (so you are in a win one bet/lose two bets situation). If you check/raise, a worse hand will almost always pay off but a better hand will have a harder time taking it to 3-bets then a better hand would have making it 2-bets had you lead out. So you are in a win two/lose two a good amount of the time. So in this hand, I would check/raise 55, 22 and the nut flush if I could hold it.

3) If your hand is merely good, you should check and call. So with a small flush or trips in this hand, you should check/call the river. Betting out does no good because you are again in a -EV spot.

Brad

[mmbt0ne]

I would really like this to go 3 bets on the river, but not 4. You both look like either you either slowplayed a flush, or hit trips on the turn, so maybe he think he has your 8 beat. Either way, based solely on the fact that you have to call a cap, and that would suck hard, I don't 3bet.

[chesspain]

Three-betting the river would be spewing.

[jluker7]

I dont understand how 3 betting river is spewing chips. After SB checks and calls 2 on flop, then bets out turn, vs 2 aggresors on the flop. I dont see how we can put him on a boat? It would make much more sense to put him on a weaker flush, and bets to see if some one infact did pair the board, or he just hit trips and is betting them to protect vs flush draw. IMO SB is in the perfect position to check/raise a boat and make a ton of money.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand how 3 betting river is spewing chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO SB is in the perfect position to check/raise a boat and make a ton of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your two statements contradict each other.

[jluker7]

I am talking about on the turn, the SB would c/r a boat? vs 2 aggresors and a cold callers on the flop?


Also if the SB is smart enough to play this fancy, i have to believe he is going to 3 bet his set on the flop.