Why I don't want to turn pro

[MelchyBeau]

I hear alot of people trying to work to get better so they can become pro, and if they make it more power to them. I have no problem with pro poker players (as long as they aren't sitting at my table).

So let me start off by saying I am not good enough at this point to become pro at this game, however I believe if I worked hard enough I could reach that level. I do plan on becoming better at poker and using it as a side income.

My first reason is job satisfaction, I enjoy my job. I work in a research lab. I am actually managing to use my B.S. in Physics. I hear alot of people dread going to work, however I look forward to it. It might be where I am employed or what I do, or a combination of both, but I honestly enjoy my time there. As a pro, your 'co-workers' are your opponents. my coworkers are just that. they are a great bunch of guys who joke around alot and have fun.

My second reason is job security. Yeah I may have a bad day or two at work, but I'll still get paid for them. I also get benifits from work. It is nice not to have to pay all your medical bills out of pocket. Research in physics will always be there. Poker is in a boom, but there is a possibility it gets worse. I know it will always be around, but it may become less fishy.

3rd, Poker is fun to me, that might change if it was my livelyhood. Some people manage to turn thier hobby into thier job. I imagine that many get burned out from it though. I think I would too, who knows I may eventually burn out even with it as a hobby.

4th, I probably could surpass my income right now by playing poker, however my expected value several years down the line will be larger. I plan on going back to school to get my Masters and possibly my Ph.D.

So overall, I believe this decision is +ev for me in both financial wise, and well being wise. Health wise too, cause occasionally on our breaks we play B-Ball. Even just having to stand constantly while in the lab will keep the fat off easier than sitting my ass in a chair in front of a computer.

I'll just restate that I see nothing wrong with going pro. It is just not for me. ZeeJustin stated that he didn't feel college was for him, and that the poker route was better for him. I feel the opposite for my life. We may both end up making the same amount of money and have the same amount of happiness, just we chose different directions to achieve this.

just thought I'd add my thoughts into the mix, because I see many people wanting to go pro. thought I would just add a counter point.

Melch

[mantasm]

Before you decide to keep your job, make sure you have at least 6 months living expenses saved up PLUS a much larger bankroll than you would need working recreationally. Come up with a system to pay yourself every week or two weeks.

How many years have you worked? You may not have worked enough to be confident in your $$/40hrs. If you need to ask other people if you're ready to keep your job, you probably aren't. Good luck.

[Sooga]

I hear ya bro... I hear about so many players going to turn pro and while I wish them luck, I wonder what they're gonna do 5, 10 years down the line when they get sick of poker and want to do something else. A big gap like that with no 'real' employment doesn't look good to prospective employers.

[reubenf]

Your sample size is too small. Come back in 30 years after you've been passed up for promotion after promotion and you no longer have the skills to compete with the young guns coming in straight from college.

[BigSkiRace]

I keep on asking my self the same questions playing poker is becoming more and more lucrative for me, but I dont think I will be a productive member of society doing it, along with the fact that I can make a hell of alot more money working at my dads company, but poker is my passion and doing commerical real-estate is a passion of mine not as much as poker. Wow my life is unbalenced

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think I will be a productive member of society doing it

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you pay taxes on it? I'd just go with "only a slightly productive member of society."

[Guruman]

I could've written a post almost exactly like the initial poster - only subsititue in Audio Engineering, a vested spot in the company, and the long run of good play and good luck it would take to come anywhere near my current salary.

I sure love the competitiveness and the complexity of poker - but I couldn't see myself paying the mortgage with it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Toro]

Wow, I could have written your post. Feel exactly the same.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I could have written your post. Feel exactly the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Al Schoonmaker]

You have stated an intelligent position extremely well. Poker sucks as a career, but it's a great second job.

Regards,
Al

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
You have stated an intelligent position extremely well. Poker sucks as a career, but it's a great second job.

Regards,
Al

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is highly dependent on the person. You can't possibly say this is true for everyone.

[wontons]

To be or not to be a true poker player? Isn't that the questions? A player such as scotty nyguen states he would rather like poker as a career than anything else in the world. I agree with him based on my personality traits and my love of the game. However, Poker requires a large bankroll and is definitely not a sure bet. You need $2,000 to fix your car to pay medical bills thats coming from your bankroll now you might not have enough to handle the downswings. Also people ALWAYS look at the finacial aspect of downswings...what about mental exhaustion. I recently was a 98% favorite going into the river after the turn...bet this pot hardcore whole way down...guy was rich and drew out on me with his 2 outer...this was a $1,600.00 pot. Although I was surely pissed about the money...bought in for 4 beans ran it up to 840 before hand...i was much more emotionally drained after the hand. Very next hand I flop nut straight only to be turned by a guy who made a full boat. After those 2 hands I had to take a walk. Being a Pro player I would have to take the day off and be down $900. This would make it harder to get back emotionally than finacial is my point. Anyone agree...disagree?

[tytygoodnuts]

[ QUOTE ]
To be or not to be a true poker player? Isn't that the questions? A player such as scotty nyguen states he would rather like poker as a career than anything else in the world. I agree with him based on my personality traits and my love of the game. However, Poker requires a large bankroll and is definitely not a sure bet. You need $2,000 to fix your car to pay medical bills thats coming from your bankroll now you might not have enough to handle the downswings. Also people ALWAYS look at the finacial aspect of downswings...what about mental exhaustion. I recently was a 98% favorite going into the river after the turn...bet this pot hardcore whole way down...guy was rich and drew out on me with his 2 outer...this was a $1,600.00 pot. Although I was surely pissed about the money...bought in for 4 beans ran it up to 840 before hand...i was much more emotionally drained after the hand. Very next hand I flop nut straight only to be turned by a guy who made a full boat. After those 2 hands I had to take a walk. Being a Pro player I would have to take the day off and be down $900. This would make it harder to get back emotionally than finacial is my point. Anyone agree...disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I hear you big time. I just came off an awful session. I lost about 75 big bets. The emotional stress is very tough to handle.


One thing I am wondering about- As a proffessional poker player what do you do if you have some sort of accident and damage your brain and are no longer able to play? This is a very scary senerio, but it has to be taken into account if you want to go pro.

[tytygoodnuts]

The mental toughness a pro needs just blows me away. Everyone says that when you are in a downswing just keep playing your best, but it is much easier said than done. I am sure a pro will be playing with the appropriate bankroll, but they are probably playing at a high limit. When you are a heavy favorite to win a hand and take a bad beat and see all that money slip through your fingers it must be tough to handle when you figure that you potentially could have been paying the bills for a month with that pot. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[KidPokerX]

I agree, but I would also agree that many professional poker players love poker ... still. A hobby can be a long-term, well suited career for many people. I say do what makes you happy, and keep doing it. 20 years down the line, if something new makes you happy, so be it. Changing career paths is perfectly normal in all professions and should not be shamed on, even with poker.
I am glad that you have found your spot in society, but at first I assumed you were simply bragging about this to a forum full of poker players. You did not show any sign of understanding that many of us have found our niche as well - even if it's not as glamorous as a researcher of physcis (although one could argue that poker is a science just as physics, and that a poker player is a researcher of science).
I do not mean to ignite any debate, in fact I really am not looking for a response. I just hope you realize that many of us are happy, and will continue to be happy, doing something that many consider just a meaningless hobby.
Keep it real.

-KidPokerX

[Triumph36]

I think the pros who love the game are playing at the highest levels. I think there's a big difference between 4 tabling 10/20 at Party Poker and playing live against guys you've been trying to outwit for years. How many professional baseball players would say they love the life if they could hit .550 in some obscure minor league, but only made 50 grand a year and no one came to see them play?

[KidPokerX]

are you trying to argue that to love the game you must be a glamorous player? I don't think this is the case. Many people in many different walks of life love their career - even though nobody ever reads about them or comes around to see them work. To think like this would be self-centered, and I really doubt anyone could win for a long time with a thought process like this.
Nobody comes around to see me, yet I persist. And I enjoy it.

[Demana]

[ QUOTE ]
Before you decide to keep your job, make sure you have at least 6 months living expenses saved up PLUS a much larger bankroll than you would need working recreationally. Come up with a system to pay yourself every week or two weeks.

How many years have you worked? You may not have worked enough to be confident in your $$/40hrs. If you need to ask other people if you're ready to keep your job, you probably aren't. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the funniest responses I have read in a long time /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sublime]

One of the funniest responses I have read in a long time

whats so funny about it?

[riffraff]

it's advice usually given if one were going to QUIT his job to play poker instead of keep it.

[sublime]

it's advice usually given if one were going to QUIT his job to play poker instead of keep it

LMAO, i didnt read it that well the first time. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[MRBAA]

I don't think most people win enough to go pro and earn enough to really make a living. Now, if you're 23, no dependents, still can fall back on family in a crunch, that's one thing. But when you hit 28, want to get married and/or own a home and/or have kids and/or have nicer car/furniture/vacations and/or need healthcare, most players simply can't earn enough to do it. If Phil Ivey's at the top and David Ross is in the middle, most people are going to fall into the bottom tier of winning players, who can make a nice little side money while enjoying a great hobby.

[Little Fishy]

one of my best friends from home, also a 2+2er, dropped out of wakeforest first semester in order to run a company with his dad, and play cards, both pretty much full time. despite being aprofitable card player and salesman my friend after only a couple of months out of school is planning on going back to college (Babson this time) for buisness and putting cards on the backburner for a while.

the point of this post is not to say that my friend should or shouldn't have dropped out, or that he got burned out (which he didn't) my point is that although the prospect of playing cards for a living may be alluring, when entering the game, it's very important to have a way to get up and leave.

so for all you would be pros: "leave yourself some outs"

-little fishy

[sublime]

i think you are underestimating the power of playing many tables at once.

[Triumph36]

Poker is by its nature competitive, so players want new challenges. To continue at the same limits because one earns well there will probably get very boring if a player is not very challenged. But whereas with other jobs where new challenges usually mean more money, here it means more risk with possibly only a slightly higher earn.

And yes, I do think people need some form of ego gratification. I don't mean having large crowds in front of their accounting firm or whatever, but even simple compliments.

You can love the game without any glamour. I just see that as very difficult to do for more than a few years.

[MRBAA]

That may be. In his first year multi-tabling David Ross made about $81,000. I don't know if he has done better or worse since, or how that relates to other multitablers. Here in the NYC metro area where I live, that's not a very good income at all, without a retirement plan or health benefits. But I know in other areas, it would be -- which is one great thing about online poker. You can live pretty much anywhere and make the same amount.

[Flint{$N}]

[ QUOTE ]
the point of this post is not to say that my friend should or shouldn't have dropped out...

"leave yourself some outs"

-little fishy

[/ QUOTE ]

After I read the first line, I recited that exact same line in my head...creepy!!!! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Flint

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
I hear alot of people trying to work to get better so they can become pro, and if they make it more power to them. I have no problem with pro poker players (as long as they aren't sitting at my table).

So let me start off by saying I am not good enough at this point to become pro at this game, however I believe if I worked hard enough I could reach that level. I do plan on becoming better at poker and using it as a side income.

My first reason is job satisfaction, I enjoy my job. I work in a research lab. I am actually managing to use my B.S. in Physics. I hear alot of people dread going to work, however I look forward to it. It might be where I am employed or what I do, or a combination of both, but I honestly enjoy my time there. As a pro, your 'co-workers' are your opponents. my coworkers are just that. they are a great bunch of guys who joke around alot and have fun.

My second reason is job security. Yeah I may have a bad day or two at work, but I'll still get paid for them. I also get benifits from work. It is nice not to have to pay all your medical bills out of pocket. Research in physics will always be there. Poker is in a boom, but there is a possibility it gets worse. I know it will always be around, but it may become less fishy.

3rd, Poker is fun to me, that might change if it was my livelyhood. Some people manage to turn thier hobby into thier job. I imagine that many get burned out from it though. I think I would too, who knows I may eventually burn out even with it as a hobby.

4th, I probably could surpass my income right now by playing poker, however my expected value several years down the line will be larger. I plan on going back to school to get my Masters and possibly my Ph.D.

So overall, I believe this decision is +ev for me in both financial wise, and well being wise. Health wise too, cause occasionally on our breaks we play B-Ball. Even just having to stand constantly while in the lab will keep the fat off easier than sitting my ass in a chair in front of a computer.

I'll just restate that I see nothing wrong with going pro. It is just not for me. ZeeJustin stated that he didn't feel college was for him, and that the poker route was better for him. I feel the opposite for my life. We may both end up making the same amount of money and have the same amount of happiness, just we chose different directions to achieve this.

just thought I'd add my thoughts into the mix, because I see many people wanting to go pro. thought I would just add a counter point.

Melch

[/ QUOTE ]

........IMO, there is much wisdom in this post. I like where your head is at on this subject.

FWIW.......Point #3: Turning an avocation into a vocation. There is a great likelihood that by doing this, one will take all of the joy out of what was a very enjoyable pastime for you.

Also, the next time you play in a major tournament.....Book a room in the casino where it is being played for 3-4 days. Spend ALL of your time at the tables and in/around the poker room. While doing this, sit back and take a CLOSE look at the "Pro's & Pro wannabees". I see many of them leading "quiet lives of desperation, isolation and lonliness".

I truly enjoy many of the dynamics of this situation, but, I am SO happy (and fortunate) to be able to return to my family, friends, business and other avocations outside of the poker 'netherworld'.

[OrianasDaad]

I respect the honesty it took to make such a post. Many people will blind themselves because they want to become a pro, whether or not they have the fortitude to do so. It takes a great deal of wisdom to perform the necessary self-examination needed to make a decision like this.

[KidPokerX]

are we serious?
You all speak like the game has some barrier, that you can not make past a certain limit, that eventually you will live a life of "isolation and despair". Nonsense.

Poker has no barrier, allowing one to constantly learn and improve his game and increase his earnings. Also, poker is not a "netherworld". Look at David Sklansky, Lee Jones, Mason Malmuth .. uh, hell, Lee Jones, Al Schoonmaker... and everyone else who has branched out from the tables.

Authors have used their poker knowledge to not only satisfy their natural tendency for some self-accomplishment/worth, but also found a way to start a very profitable side-career.

Al schoonmaker claims to play for the love of simply studying the psychology of his opponents. This is no different.

Now with the boom of our dreams, poker has exploded into a sort of "Win $1,000,000" game show ... exploiting the "get rich quick" motto. We all know this, so it's quite obvious how one could branch themselves into a very successful business enterprise.

Many 'T.V. pros' earn much much more from the marketing than anything else (Phil Helmuth to name one).

It is only when you have given up that you no longer wish to persue your passion. The players who filter through that stage in their poker career are the ones who truelly thrive.

-KidPokerX

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
are we serious?
You all speak like the game has some barrier, that you can not make past a certain limit, that eventually you will live a life of "isolation and despair". Nonsense.

Poker has no barrier, allowing one to constantly learn and improve his game and increase his earnings. Also, poker is not a "netherworld". Look at David Sklansky, Lee Jones, Mason Malmuth .. uh, hell, Lee Jones, Al Schoonmaker... and everyone else who has branched out from the tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

....if you think it's nonsense, so be it. From your response it seems to me that you see it as a black & white issue. I don't think that it is. There are many shades of gray involved. Please re-read my post with that in mind.

[ QUOTE ]

It is only when you have given up that you no longer wish to persue your passion. The players who filter through that stage in their poker career are the ones who truelly thrive.

-KidPokerX

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say above?....please expand.

[RydenStoompala]

[ QUOTE ]
Authors have used their poker knowledge to not only satisfy their natural tendency for some self-accomplishment/worth, but also found a way to start a very profitable side-career.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. A helluva lot more profitable than poker.

Look what the rock stars have to do. Maintain personal web sites, co-author books, personal appearances, win the odd tournament, play high stakes against businessmen who pay more a month in taxes than the pro makes in an average year. Look at what the grinders do. Eeek out an OK living squeezing a couple of BB per hundred hands out of mid-level games.

Oh ya. Count me in.

[KidPokerX]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

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It is only when you have given up that you no longer wish to persue your passion. The players who filter through that stage in their poker career are the ones who truelly thrive.

-KidPokerX

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I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say above?....please expand.

[/ QUOTE ]

A player gives up on his game because he has lost interest. He no longer wants to persue his once passion and has moved to something new and more exciting/profitable/beneficial to society, whatever. The player has quit.

I am saying that there should be no reason to quit if someone's tuelly passionate about something. There is so much complexity to this game, so much more than what appears on the surface ...

Quitters are filtered with the rest of those who couldn't handle the grind. Those who simply couldn't cut it - the remaining players are those who thrive.

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

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It is only when you have given up that you no longer wish to persue your passion. The players who filter through that stage in their poker career are the ones who truelly thrive.

-KidPokerX

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I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say above?....please expand.

[/ QUOTE ]

A player gives up on his game because he has lost interest. He no longer wants to persue his once passion and has moved to something new and more exciting/profitable/beneficial to society, whatever. The player has quit.

I am saying that there should be no reason to quit if someone's tuelly passionate about something. There is so much complexity to this game, so much more than what appears on the surface ...

Quitters are filtered with the rest of those who couldn't handle the grind. Those who simply couldn't cut it - the remaining players are those who thrive.

[/ QUOTE ]

.........although I believe that I understand the general sentiment of your response, it’s a bit too ‘black & white’ for me.

For example......A player (could be baseball, football or a nuclear physicist!!) may give up on his ‘game’ (baseball, football or scientific research) because he has lost interest, but NOT necessarily because he has lost passion. Passion is only one of the components that can carry people through difficulties in many endeavors. Other characteristics that contribute more to moving forward are: professionalism, clarity of purpose, experience, open-mindedness, curiosity, ability, maturity and vision.

Passion may be the primary motivator that gets one going down a certain path, but, in my experiences, can only sustain that journey for so long. It is then, that a combination of the other characteristics listed above are necessary to continue the trip.

If the ‘passion’ that you’re talking about is a true ‘passion for learning’, then it becomes a great tool for you.

If, however, you pin all of your hopes for success on pure passion alone (i.e. ‘love of the game’), you may be setting yourself up for failure.

People quit for many reasons......not being able to handle the grind is only one of them, and sometimes the reasons are very valid.

People thrive for many reasons, and sometimes those reasons are not always good...........

[KidPokerX]

Myrtle,

Yes of course. Yes, my statement is broad only because I am grasping a general consensus in the reasoning behind quitting. Of course there will be specifc cases that help lead a "player" to his/her decision (to stay or go).

Your answer is in the same light as mine - and even though they are both black and white - the underlying purpose remains the same. Those who quit any profession, even nuclear physics, are doing so for many reasons (I categorized as losing passion - although you are right, passion can be in many forms, which can contribute differently to a person's reason for staying in his profession).

Let's agree that this is not something that can be categorized, each individual case would need to be examined. My argument was simply that those players who quit are doing so out of a loss of interest (whatever the case may be), and that these people are the ones who are filtered from the best.

The best continue to strive and continue to persue their goal. A true poker player wants to be the best, and understand he must overcome many obstacles on his way to the top. The best don't quit when they get bored, they expand.

Besides, not everyone can be on the top.

Best of luck, Myrtle.

-KidPokerX