Low Limits in Vegas, plenty of Veni and Vidi, not enough Vici

[kirkt]

Hi all, a little story then a few questions,

I've been playing trashcan limit hold em on party poker (0.5/1 and a little bit of 1/2 now that my bankroll has grown) and I love what it has taught me. So when I went to Las Vegas this past week I was met by two surprises.

1) how loose and weak the table play until the turn and how little respect raises preflop and on the flop garner.

2) How discouraging playing pocket pairs below kings for value became. Pocket queens became very costly for me.

3) The players who won more than me all played a ballgame I'm not used to. They too saw a lot of flops and turns in weak positions and only really made the value of their hand known after they called down or improved it on the turn or river.

This led me to three conclusions
1) The way I play - tight preflop and as aggressive as possible until its obvious my hand is no longer the best, is substantially less valuable than I would like it to be.

2) Check raising the flop is only worthwhile to increase pot size.

3) This table opens up a lot of room for backdoor flushes and increases the value of unsuited/gapped connectors, weak aces and so on, making hands I've never been fond of more worthwhile in late positions. In my mind that makes the game a bit like two card omaha, but maybe that analogy is an incorrect one.

So my questions are these:
1) Do I need more work with how to clean up my play on and after the flop?

2) Should I too loosen up a little pre-flop and try to nail people with made hands more often?

3) Are there a few posts or books I can turn to and really get my noodle working on this subject?

Thanks!

PS - edit due to crappy organizing

[jclin]

2/4 Vegas play is very loose. But don't loosen your requirements too much. If they continually call down, there is no room for the bluff AT ALL (semi bluff is fine).

Me, I welcome people calling A-xo until the river. Always continue to raise PF your good hands. Stay aggresive when you have made hands on flop. You always always welcome the callers. Just remember that people will suck out a lot more often.

In addition, many players will never raise preflop unless they have aces. I see this all the time. Keep your hand ranges very wide. Any 2 suited cards, any ace, 67o, 45o, the whole gambit.

Last, using tells in live games are the edge that can push you to high profitability. That's for you to learn.

[Moozh]

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Hi all, a little story then a few questions,

I've been playing trashcan limit hold em on party poker (0.5/1 and a little bit of 1/2 now that my bankroll has grown) and I love what it has taught me. So when I went to Las Vegas this past week I was met by two surprises.

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1) how loose and weak the table play until the turn and how little respect raises preflop and on the flop garner.

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Absolutely, although I haven't noticed a change on the turn.

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2) How discouraging playing pocket pairs below kings for value became. Pocket queens became very costly for me.

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Not true. You have a small sample size and probably lost 2 or 3 pots with the ladies. Over the long run, QQ should always be your 3rd best winner.

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3) The players who won more than me all played a ballgame I'm not used to. They too saw a lot of flops and turns in weak positions and only really made the value of their hand known after they called down or improved it on the turn or river.

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Just because they won doesn't mean they wouldn't have won more had they played more aggresively. Calling stations will go on nice runs because they're involved in so many pots. In the long run, they will lose money.

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This led me to three conclusions
1) The way I play - tight preflop and as aggressive as possible until its obvious my hand is no longer the best, is substantially less valuable than I would like it to be.

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Wrong. Remember, it takes tens of thousands of hands to get a true feel for your results. How many hands have you played live? A few hundred? Keep playing solid and the results will follow.

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2) Check raising the flop is only worthwhile to increase pot size.

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Yup

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3) This table opens up a lot of room for backdoor flushes and increases the value of unsuited/gapped connectors, weak aces and so on, making hands I've never been fond of more worthwhile in late positions. In my mind that makes the game a bit like two card omaha, but maybe that analogy is an incorrect one.

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You're on the right track, but a bit off. Because the pots have so many more callers, you can play more hands because you're getting odds. But, when you add hands to your arsenal, you want the hands to be ones that play well multi-way. Thus, play more suited aces and even suited kings if the table is loose enough. Suited one gappers are also ok to add if the hands are going to the flop for one bet 6 or more ways. But, you definitely do not want to add hands like unsuited weak aces that play horribly multi-way. Stay away from anything that requires 2-pair to win.

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So my questions are these:
1) Do I need more work with how to clean up my play on and after the flop?

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Perhaps, post some hands...

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2) Should I too loosen up a little pre-flop and try to nail people with made hands more often?

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Yes, as stated above, you can play more hands for value when the game is so loose. But make sure you're playing the right hands.

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3) Are there a few posts or books I can turn to and really get my noodle working on this subject?

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Ed Miller's Small Stakes Hold'Em deals with this situation exactly. Read the micro-limits forum for posts on games like this.

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Thanks!

PS - edit due to crappy organizing

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[kirkt]

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You're on the right track, but a bit off. Because the pots have so many more callers, you can play more hands because you're getting odds. But, when you add hands to your arsenal, you want the hands to be ones that play well multi-way. Thus, play more suited aces and even suited kings if the table is loose enough. Suited one gappers are also ok to add if the hands are going to the flop for one bet 6 or more ways. But, you definitely do not want to add hands like unsuited weak aces that play horribly multi-way. Stay away from anything that requires 2-pair to win.

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You mention six callers for one-gappers. That sounds reasonable to me. Is there a set of data/tables I can look at to follow through on this? Is this in Jones' book? I've read it, but it didn't tell me too much more than I already knew.