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coinflip
03-19-2005, 04:02 PM
Villain is relatively new to table and has sat through a couple of orbits without being remarkable as yet. Moderately loose preflop and hasn't gone crazy post yet.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Unless villain has the case jack, it's doubtful that anyone has a strong hand here. I seem to remember SSH advising a slowplay if you flop a monster top set on an uncoordinated rainbow board, so I thought I'd try it here.

Turn: (4.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls.

Yay, an overcard! If I'm lucky UTG+2 caught something and will call me down ...

River: (8.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets...</font>

Obviously at this point, the only thing I fear is two pair with a king rivering kings full. Who likes a call versus a 3-bet here?
einbert
03-19-2005, 04:04 PM
I like betting this flop. It's pretty ragged and you'll get calls from ace high. An 8 might raise you, the J is unlikely but it will most likely raise you. Then you can checkraise the turn.

The way you played it is isn't bad either, but it would suck if UTG checked behind on the turn.

I'm three-betting the river and calling a cap, you're good here almost every time.
Shillx
03-19-2005, 04:13 PM
Just bet the flop. People here need to go back to playing caveman poker -- "Me flop top set. Me bet!" /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Brad
coinflip
03-19-2005, 04:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I like betting this flop. It's pretty ragged and you'll get calls from ace high. An 8 might raise you, the J is unlikely but it will most likely raise you. Then you can checkraise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting out (esp. since I'm the preflop raiser) is obviously a viable option too. I'd just been re-reading SSH yesterday, and the section that came to mind (I had to dig a bit to find it again!) was p.128, where Ed describes a flop of K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif. With a set of 3's, he advocates fastplay, but goes on to say that "three kings, on the other hand, usually does call for a slowplay on the flop".

Arguments for slowplaying: pot is relatively small, the field is small, and no hand has a reasonable chance to overtake me. I'm only likely to get action from the case J (unlikely) or maybe a mid pocket pair or 2nd pair. More often, this ragged flop misses everybody and they all fold.

Arguments against: "Hey, it's Party, maybe they'll all call anyways". I always used to bet these situations at 0.5/1 using exactly this argument, but I find at 2/4 that this is becoming less true, and I'm trying to adjust without getting overly fancy.

I remain interested in hearing the opinions/corrections of others though /images/graemlins/smile.gif
LoaferGee12
03-19-2005, 04:21 PM
They are expecting you to bet here. A bet will not scare them off. A jack and occasional midpair will raise you here in which you can choose to either 3-bet or c/r the turn. This could too easily be checked through on the flop or the turn which I hate.
bottomset
03-19-2005, 08:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just bet the flop. People here need to go back to playing caveman poker -- "Me flop top set. Me bet!" /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]
milesdyson
03-19-2005, 09:00 PM
Yeah, they don't know you have JJ. They'll call you with overcards anyway.

You want someone to bet this flop right? Well, do you think other people are going to call another player's bet more often than they're going to call yours? I don't follow this. Checking this flop is bad because:

1. whoever ends up calling a bet would've called regardless of who made the bet.
2. you're risking letting it get checked through (this is a high % chance)