An ITM exercise

[eastbay]

3-handed, even stacks totalling 10k chips.

Fairly typical mid-high buyin game, you expect calls from the top 15% of the Karlson-Sklansky hand rankings: 44+,A9o+,A7s+,KJs+.

Start with blinds 200/400.

From the button, what hands are winning push hands?
What about from the SB?

Then consider a looser game or the same game after a lot of aggressive play where images have degraded to pretty loose, and calling standards drop to top 25% of KS rank: 22+,A3o+,A2s+,KJo+,KTs+,QJs.

Now what are good hands from the button?
And the SB?

If you're really motivated, repeat all 4 questions for blinds 250/500.

My line to come.

eastbay

[curtains]

Is the point going to be that you are more motivated to push with mediocre hands once the calling standards have become looser?

A pretty rare occurance late in sit and go's.

[eastbay]

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Is the point going to be that you are more motivated to push with mediocre hands once the calling standards have become looser?


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Uhh... what? I suggest you try it yourself. No, that is of course the opposite from the correct trend.

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A pretty rare occurance late in sit and go's.

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It's rare that SnGs get looser at the end? What are you smoking today?

eastbay

[curtains]

Well when I tried it, it became more +EV to push when they had looser calling standards.

I meant that it's rare you'll ever want to push when you expect to be called by more hands as opposed to less. Just try it out with 66, its+ EV against the looser calling standards but -EV against tight players.

[rybones]

I would play, but it would be cheating. I would use your sng-anlysis tool to get the same answers you have.
/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Rybones

[curtains]

I'm very sorry, I thought you said 10k chips for each player! I was using that assumption, believing it was some weird type of sit and go.

[curtains]

Anyway seems like with the tight standards a huge % of hands are correct to push, and with the looser standards very few hands are correct to push, just like normal. For instance KTs is incorrect to push accroding to the program (However I don't think it's correct to fold KTs here).

[eastbay]

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Well when I tried it, it became more +EV to push when they had looser calling standards.


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What, if you had aces?

That's not the question. The question is how many hands are profitable.

eastbay

[eastbay]

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Anyway seems like with the tight standards a huge % of hands are correct to push, and with the looser standards very few hands are correct to push.

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You could possibly be more vague, but I'm not sure how.

An important variable I brought up purposely was position, for example.

But you're "cheating" anyhow. I'm more interested in people's intuition.

eastbay

[ZebraAss]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif I didn't understand a word you just said.

I think this thread is way over my head at this point of my game. But I will try to learn.

[Mr_J]

Well any 2 from SB in the tight table.
Maybe the better 50% of my hands from button.

Loose table
SB still probally most hands. Any 2 face, any ace, most kings and queens, any pair, and some of the SC below T (you know like 98s, 97s). Also throw in JT and T9s.

From button, I tighten up alot, probally 44+, A8+, KQ??

This is just off the top of my head so could be pretty wrong.

[eastbay]

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Well any 2 from SB in the tight table.

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Check.

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Maybe the better 50% of my hands from button.


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Too loose, both in theory and practice, I think.

44+,A9o+,A8s+,KQ,KTs+,QTs+,JTs by the usual analysis. I think this is a point which may be underappreciated in general. The button is a significantly worse stealing position than the SB.

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Loose table
SB still probally most hands. Any 2 face, any ace, most kings and queens, any pair, and some of the SC below T (you know like 98s, 97s). Also throw in JT and T9s.


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Too tight. The analysis takes you down all the way to 54s. The midrange 1-gappers and lower range no-gappers are in there.

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From button, I tighten up alot, probally 44+, A8+, KQ??

This is just off the top of my head so could be pretty wrong.

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Pretty darn close to the analysis, which says 55+,A9o+,A8s+.

Not bad.

eastbay

[Apathy]

The difference between what you should push when the players one to your left and two to your left are either loose or tight is quite large, it really shows how important it is to pay attention to the early game in SNGs to get an idea of how loose a persons calling/raising standards are.

It's sad how I acknowlegde this fact and yet, am typing this while 4 tabling /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
The difference between what you should push when the players one to your left and two to your left are either loose or tight is quite large, it really shows how important it is to pay attention to the early game in SNGs to get an idea of how loose a persons calling/raising standards are.

It's sad how I acknowlegde this fact and yet, am typing this while 4 tabling /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

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Yessir. This really jives with the fact that people can really get very high ROIs when 1- and 2-tabling. You may not really be aware of the fact that you're soaking up useful information, but you really are, and it really does become very important.

Of course, we all know that ROI per game is not the bottom line, so finding the right balance is the key.

eastbay

[Apathy]

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finding the right balance is the key

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This is exactly what I have been working on the last few weeks, let's just say you won't see me 8-tabling for a little longer. At least not at the 109s+

[Daliman]

I hate exercise.

[curtains]

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Too loose, both in theory and practice, I think.

44+,A9o+,A8s+,KQ,KTs+,QTs+,JTs by the usual analysis. I think this is a point which may be underappreciated in general. The button is a significantly worse stealing position than the SB.



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When I did the analysis it seems that you shuold push a lot more hands than the one's you mentioned. I get 65s, 76o etc as slightly +EV against the tight calling range from the button.