KK, I appologize in advance [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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DavidC

03-19-2005, 10:15 AM

Villian is TAN after maybe 30-50 hands. Other than that, no reads as I was 8-tabling to clear bonus.

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Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero caps, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB bets,

*** When he leads this turn, I think that this is an excellent way for him to play a flush draw, because he's going to get everyone to call a bet, then when he calls my raise, everyone calls a raise. Of course, he'd probably bet with quite a few hands in this spot, so I'm not putting him on the flush draw yet. ***

UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 folds,

*** Okay, he doesn't have a flush draw. I'm putting him on a good hand now: AA or AK. I figure that if I call this bet I can get him to lead the turn into me. This is a questionable play on my behalf, as scare cards could induce a check (the last K, a diamond, a straight card). However, I don't want to take him out of the lead just yet, as he'll likely check to me on the turn no matter what if I raise here. I could have AQs diamonds, based on the way I've played the hand so far, but if my opponent holds one of those cards, he'll know I've got KK or AK. ***

Hero calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

*** I probably cap to a re-raise here, just because I know the guy's going to pound me with less than a flush. However, this narrows his hands significantly. He almost definitely has AA or AK, and I'm willing to go with AA at this point, because AK may not have led that turn. ***

River: (16.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

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When my buddy plays an overpair on a ragged flop against aggression, he tries very hard to give his opposition the chance to put in the cap on the flop, so that he knows if he should lead the rest of the hand.

This results in him betting out rather than check-raising when he's in early position, because if his opponent re-raises his checkraise, the opponent doesn't have the opportunity to put in the cap, which indicates slightly more strength.

I think my play MAY HAVE gotten an extra 1 SB through my flop call. It's quite possible that it would have cost me 1 SB in actual fact though.

I'm very very comfortable with my river call, based on the turn action.

This is probably a silly question, but my PF cap is good, right? If no one responds to this question, I'll take that as a yes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Comments?

hate

03-19-2005, 10:28 AM

You calling the flop 3-bet is an invitation for him to bet out the turn. I like your reasoning disregarding the flush. If I had AK, I'd be leading that turn if you called the 3-bet rather than capped. Like that raise on the turn. I don't know what to think about the river, but I think I like the call. Don't know if that changes anything, but I think you can assume he's not going to 3-bet the river, even with a set of Aces.

MrWookie47

03-19-2005, 10:39 AM

Interesting hand.

I think you should cap the flop. If your opponent is holding AA, I think he'll lead into you on the turn thinking you have AK, but if he has AK, it'll slow him down. With the board as it is, there are 4 ways for him to have AK, and 6 ways for him to have AA, making AA the more likely holding.

Dang, with AA as the more likely holding, that's sure a rough river. Hopefully he showed you AK /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Oh, and the preflop cap is fine, unless you know that your opponent will only 3bet you with AA.

DavidC

03-19-2005, 10:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You calling the flop 3-bet is an invitation for him to bet out the turn. I like your reasoning disregarding the flush. If I had AK, I'd be leading that turn if you called the 3-bet rather than capped. Like that raise on the turn. I don't know what to think about the river, but I think I like the call. Don't know if that changes anything, but I think you can assume he's not going to 3-bet the river, even with a set of Aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, you make a very good point about his reaction to a river raise.

I think he would raise, if he had the Ad, since he couldn't put me on a flush if he held those cards. Since there's only three of them left and 2 would be in his hand, here's a 1/3 chance of him not 3-betting the river.

Based on the flop and turn action, though, he may be afraid enough not to raise me.

If that's true, then I just have to figure out how often he'll have AK and how often he'll have AA.

I figure he wouldn't 3-bet AKo given that he probably knows just as much about me as I do about him, and I haven't given him reason to think I'm crazy. So we can narrow it down to AKs vs AA. I think AKs is 1/270 hands and AA is 1/220.

This is pretty complex stuff though. I'm not comfortable discussing this as "an authority."

DavidC

03-19-2005, 10:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I figure he wouldn't 3-bet AKo given that he probably knows just as much about me as I do about him, and I haven't given him reason to think I'm crazy. So we can narrow it down to AKs vs AA. I think AKs is 1/270 hands and AA is 1/220.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Uh... you can tell that I'm DEFINITELY not an authority. I forgot that since I'm holding 2 kings, it's highly unlikely that he's got AKs as opposed to AA.

Whoops.

He may cap with QQ, but once he 3-bets the flop I'm sure he doesn't have QQ any more.

Isura

03-19-2005, 11:32 AM

I like the way you played the whole hand. And, I agree mostly with your reasoning. You are HU with a monster hand, and your opponent is basically drawing dead unless he has a flush draw. You can't protect that much against a flush draw anyways, and you want him to pay off on later streets with his other holdings. Nice hand.

Entity

03-19-2005, 12:24 PM

I would raise the river and call a 3-bet.

He's got AK 3 ways and AA 3 ways, so it's definitely close.

Rob

btspider

03-19-2005, 12:54 PM

i approve.

DavidC

03-19-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise the river and call a 3-bet.

He's got AK 3 ways and AA 3 ways, so it's definitely close.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that AKs is more likely here than AKo, would that swing AA to the more likely hand, since there's only one AKs out there?

Am I way off base that the PF action indicates AKs rather than AKo?

Entity

03-19-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Am I way off base that the PF action indicates AKs rather than AKo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. AKo is a very easy 3-bet from the BB in a multiway pot for all but the tightest of tight players (and when I say tight, I mean "tighter than Shill" tight). And AK would usually lead the turn after you call the 3-bet.

Rob

Catt

03-19-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
. . . (and when I say tight, I mean "tighter than Shill" tight) . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this mean? Only plays black aces?

Shillx

03-19-2005, 03:12 PM

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I used to play about that tight. There was a time when I would fold AQ and JJ UTQ. I would only play AA/KK/AK against a raise. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Dave - This hand looks good. It is very hard to think that he has AK in this spot. From his perspective, he has seen you raise both the flop and turn. Did you really cap preflop with K9 or KJ? At this point he has to be thinking that you have a set or a flush. Usually in this spot (when you raise the turn when the 3rd suited card hits) you should dump it to either a reraise or a bet on the river (when you have a weakish hand). This hand pretty well illustrates what HEPFAP was trying to get across. His river bet means that he is strong (or just some loco bluff, but a TA-N will not be bluffing here imo). So strong in fact that he isn't worried about you having the hand you are trying to represent (a flush). Not that you should lay this hand down on the river, but most players underestimate the potential strength when someone bets in this spot. It surely isn't less then the top set and maybe a flush.

Brad

Catt

03-19-2005, 03:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I used to play about that tight. There was a time when I would fold AQ and JJ UTQ. I would only play AA/KK/AK against a raise. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah - I am teasing 'cause I've seen the running joke about you playing 1 in every 220 hands or so /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

DavidC

03-19-2005, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I way off base that the PF action indicates AKs rather than AKo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. AKo is a very easy 3-bet from the BB in a multiway pot for all but the tightest of tight players (and when I say tight, I mean "tighter than Shill" tight). And AK would usually lead the turn after you call the 3-bet.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Beauty! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Alright, thanks man.

DavidC

03-19-2005, 10:17 PM

Well, thanks for your help guys. I guess this was the right way to play it. One person (an established poster) recommended raising the river and calling a three-bet if I recall, but I don't know if that's a little too aggressive...

Because the possibility of AK was low, but more than 1/18, I think I had to call the river bet.

I wasn't too broken up over it when he turned over AA. I'd been correct in my river call, which is what I value at this point.

--Dave.