how close have you come . . .

[hutz]

to quitting? I've been playing for about a year now and feel like I have a firm grasp on the mechanics, odds, etc. I recognize that I have holes (who doesn't?!), but they do not account for the way I have been losing the past month or so. I'm down about 130 big bets, 85% of which are from people hitting 4-or-fewer-outers or having their 72s hit a Q72 flop v. my KK.

This is not a bad beat post. Instead, it's a few questions for those of you who are far more experienced than I am: What's the closest you came to dumping this silly game for good? Once you hit that point, what got you past it?

I just took a week off, re-read the basic books, and studied my hand histories. Upon resuming play this weekend, the string of beats picked up right where they left off. I'm teetering on the edge of waving goodbye to this vile temptress called poker. Any help pulling me back to the dark side (continuing to play) would be appreciated.

[Warren Whitmore]

Very close indeed. What brought me back was dropping down a level, learning to play all games equally well so I could chose the weakest game in the room, and limiting myself to 6 hour sessions. My win rate has improved slowly but steadily from that point forward.

[Herb N.]

I ve never wanted to quit playing this game,but I do seem to enjoy the drive home less when I lose..Bad beats are part of this game.When a player hits a 22-1 shot on you and the pot was offering him 8-1pot odds you were lucky to have a fish like that in the game.When your getting too many beats you realy got to have a real look at your game.Part of playing winning poker is raising to eliminate players even though you Proubly have the 2nd best hand.Another thought how is your table image? NEVER talk about your beats,or loses.Rember if you have the best hand aganist one player your a big favorite against 2/3,or4 you proubly not the favorite to beat the field even though you have the best at the start.Again take a good look at your game,beter yet find a good player get him away from the table and ask him to critic your faults.Can you afford to play for the stakes your playing?Poker can be a life long fun hobby.Hobbys cost money..have fun..most players do lose..to lose and not have fun is a double bummer..STUDY have fun LEARN have fun,AND hopefully your game will reach the level of a winning player..ITS NOT EASY..To be a winning player today ya gatta do a latta tings rite,and you cant do many things wrong this includes table image,bankroll size,Skill,Picking the right game,playing at night,getting up a small loser that night,Zero Tilt,I could go on,and on like I said you CAN become a life long winner but it aint easy..have fun!

[scalf]

/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif you can never leave...lol...gl /forums/images/icons/grin.gif take a break...gl

[Jeffrey Biship]

I've thought about it many times.

What frustrates me more than people getting lucky against me is knowing I'm making mistakes and being seemingly unable to stop making them. What's more frustrating than that is wondering what mistakes I'm making that I don't even know about.

For me, poker is more of a hobby than a pasttime. I have a really lame (wild cards, guts, scarney hi-lo), low limit ($.10-$1.00) weekly home game that I play in. Other than that, if I play in a casino ten times a year, it's a good year. Yet, when I lose my $3.00 in that Monday night game, I stew until about Wednesday.

What brings me back? I'm truely interested in the game and getting better. I would also suggest a TOTAL poker sabatical. Stay away from the forum. Put your books away. Stop all poker activity for a month or so. If, like that girlfriend who was great in bed, but a total nut case 99.9% of the rest of the time, you find that you stop thinking about it as time wears on, maybe you'll be better off.

If a couple months go by, and you still find yourself thinking about it and truely miss playing, well, come back and give it another go.

That's my advice.

Jeff

Quite, there is no shame in folding. Or at least take an extended break.

There could be something else deeper that is causing you to play or (stay with) loosing hands.
Other priorities can cause you to be in an “unclear state of mind”. And subconsciously you are playing bad cards or staying with beat hands too long because you want to loose so you can go back to a more important issue.

Maybe slowdown and take breaks to evaluate your priorities; Faith, important relationships, work. Ask the question “is everything ok in these respects”, and write down an honest answer or get an option from a non involved third party If something is out of whack do not play again until all is square.

If you have a solid game, and a clear head you will make the correct plays, and your play can turn around. In the worst case a break will slown down that nasty loosing streak.

Only two things really matter in life: love and work. Unless you're a pro, poker isn't in either category.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

MRBAA - I believe a famous author said that man's meaning in life comes from "Love and Work"? Do you recall who it was? Freud, perhaps? /forums/images/icons/ooo.gif I would add health to the list of things which "really matter in life". Babe

[PokerBabe(aka)]

hutz- First of all, a 135 big bet loss in a month is not at all impossible in poker. If you use a guide like 20 bb max loss per session, you are only talking about losing 7 sessions a month here. I don't know how many sessions/hours you play, but If these 7 sessions represent only a third of your monthly play, you are winning 2/3 and losing 1/3 of the time. It is frustrating to lose, but you must remember those terms you've read about called "variance" and "regression toward the mean". Nobody wins all the time, and even excellent players have losing years. You should not be discouraged at this early stage in the game just because you had one lousy month. I haven't read all the other posts, but one person suggested dropping down in limit. I think that is a good idea. Game selection is another factor. If you are playing in a loose agressive game, perhaps a softer, more passive one might yield better results. However, if you are not confident in your ability to win over the long term and if you are unable to play your "A" game while on a losing streak, you will probably not be successful. Take care and good luck. Babe

[SittingBull]

excellent player in his division will have a losing year IF he plays 2000 hrs or more that year.
I /forums/images/icons/smile.gif f he does,then I don't believe he is an excellent player for his division(Game limit,structure,etc.).
Of course,I'm basing that upon the fact that I'm a "good" player,but not "excellent",in my DIVISION. In the 10 years I've been playing in a casino,I played over 12K Hrs. and NEVER had a losing year.

Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull

[Jeffage]

I agree. If an "excellent" player has a losing year, I think he either has a tilting problem (and/or plays marathon sessions, is a degenerate who gambles it up in the pit) or, more likey, he isn't as excellent as you think he is.

Jeff

[Kevin T]

Poker is fun when you are winning. It is Ok when you win sometimes. It is a nightmare when you can't stop losing. I once went several weeks of relentless second best where I dropped 260 big bets. If it had happened when I first started playing, I would have quit for sure. Poker is a game of streaks and everyone will eventually go through a period where they can't stop losing. You may be there now.
Some people run good for a long time before they get hit over the head with standard deviation. It helps to know that sooner or later everyone earns poker's purple heart.

[DeezNuts]

I am currently in a sabbatical after a tough August. Towards the end of my slump(playing/running bad and getting killed), I started to turn it around. But for some reason, it just wasn't as much fun as it used to be. I had been playing 100 hr/mth on top of a full time job for a year(my first year playing, started in July '00). Have played only 10 hours in the past month and a half and feel fine about it. I haven't quit, but this break is nice. I am able to fill my time with other endeavors, I know I will return, but probably in a modified form playing less hours. The players are just too bad and the money is just too good.

DN

[Dick in Phoenix]

If you have $90 left, go out and buy Turbo Texas Hold'em. It can help your confidence if you practice a few hundred hours on TTH (which goes very fast), and for low limit games, there are line-ups that will match your regular game pretty well.

One of my biggest mistakes was going out to play in the last couple of years, at hi-lo(8) stud and Omaha hi-lo(8) WITHOUT first practicing on Turbo software. I dropped about 3K total in 6-12 Hi-Lo-Stud and 3-6 Omaha8, and it turned out that I had plenty of holes in my strategy. I have since spent the $180 and found that indeed I could not beat the games, then I worked on strategy, and then I started beating the computer. Huge mistake not to use Turbo for practice first. (The end of this story is yet to come. I'm concentrating on HE right now and have not taken my new strategies back to the table yet.)

[Al Schoonmaker]

You wrote: "I'm down about 130 big bets, 85% of which are from people hitting 4-or-fewer-outers or having their 72s hit a Q72 flop v. my KK."

That statement is almost certainly incorrect. You remember every time someone hits a long shot to beat you, but you never even know the dozens of times they miss and muck their hands. In fact, you are probably dozens or hundreds of bets AHEAD from the other players' stupid calls.

Over any significant period of time EV comes close to results. If people are making negative EV bets against you, you are going to beat them.

If you are making negative EV bets against others, you are going to lose to them.

It really is that simple.

I've read the entire thread, and you've gotten some excellent advice. The only thing I'll add is that you must, repeat must stop blaming bad beats for your results. Until you do so, you can't win at poker.

I regret being so unsympathetic, but poker is not a sympathetic game. It's ruthlessly predatory, and you can win only if you stop blaming bad beats and accept responsibility for your results.

Regards,

Al

[Ray Zee]

Al,s post here is one of the best and right-on ones i have ever seen. and pay close attention to his second paragraph.
reread it again so it sinks in and thats for all of us barr none.

[SittingBull]

I DID suffer a 265BB DOWN SWING in one of those years--but still had a WINNING year.
I believe Sklankey talked about an occasional 300BB down swing--even though one is very skillful in his division.

Thanks for your reply.
Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull

But that's irrelevant though. Bad beats happen, you know that, but you're not beating the game right now. The best advice you've received so far is to practice, but an equally good piece of advice is to quit. It depends on what you want to hear as to what you'll do, but either option is valid.
If you do want to practice I don't think dropping down in limits will necessarily work. First of all the rake is proportionally higher at smaller limits and this is a factor largely ignored by low-limit players, but it is a major point, especially in casinos where they rake for the bad beat jackpots in addition. At this point, you don't know enough about the game and about your own game to make the major changes that need to be made. There are great books out there to read and learn from, but not everybody learns well by books and it becomes tedious and ineffective. I learn better by watching, I've been fortunate to meet and become close friends with two great players whose games I really came to respect. If you can truly recognize a good player, which is harder than it seems, they are generally untapped resources. Feed their ego and they may help you with your game.
Poker is an extremely difficult game to play well and to beat. For months I was floundering around before the information I learned took hold and I was able to use it. You have to give yourself the chance for your experience to catch up to your knowledge. I think low-limit poker on the internet is a great way to do this. Two-plus-two is another way to build your game. Instead of posting in the psychology room post in the small stakes or mid, high-stakes rooms. Both the internet and this forum are great ways to work on the mechanics of your game. Your mental state could be the best in the world, tilt-proof/iron-clad, but your attitude won't change your game if you don't know how to play your hands. Work hard or give it up. Poker is a time consuming, (potentially) money burning, hobby. Your time could always be better spent doing what you love or finding something else to love. It's hard to imagine giving up poker, but what keeps us in the game when we gave up painting, writing, playing piano, and thousands of other hobbies in our lives. There's no shame cashing out to pursue other interests, I'd applaud you.

Good luck,
Shogun(too lazy to sign in)

I've already quit playing poker for life. Three times. You're still reading these forums and posting on them. Take a break from playing if you want, but don't kid yourself: you're not quitting. You'll be back.

I think that is the least constructive advice I've ever heard. You may think it's funny but it's not. The time and money you could lose at poker is depressing to think about. You should look at all your options and evaluate what poker means to you and does for you. There's a big difference between not being able to quit and not wanting to quit, but I think you really have a choice. g'luck

For the record, I never would have wrote what I did if the orignal poster was saying that they needed to quit, but couldn't. I thought it was funny that, quite the opposite they, were asking for advice on how not to quit and be pulled "back to the dark side." Not quitting something as enjoyable and addictive as poker is easy.

Anyway, I wasn't going to respond, but apparently I offended you. Figured at the least I'd appologize for that. Sorry.

[BruceZ]

Over any significant period of time EV comes close to results.

Of course the truth of this statement rests entirely on how you define "significant period of time" and "close to results". Most people would consider 4000 hours a significant period of time; after all it is 2 years of full time play and probably over 5 years for most people. "EV comes close to results" I think should mean that your results are at least within 20% of EV. Then we need to know how large your standard deviation is compared to your hourly rate. I'll assume it is 10 times bigger. You can go back and change these numbers any way you want. How many people will not have results close to their EV by this definition after all this time?

.2sqrt(4000)/10 = 1.26 standard deviations

This means if I'm not "close to ev" after all this time, I will be 1.26 standard deviations below the mean. 10% of the people will fall in this category. For them, EV will not come "close to results".

Further, if you want this statement to be true for say 99% of the people. They would have to play for over 13,000 hours. If you want it to be true for 99.9% of the people, they have to play for 24,000 hours.

[hutz]

This is the most interest I've seen generated in a non-name-calling/flaming topic in a long time. Most of the responses are very helpful and appreciated. I think I'm going to do a combination of things: (1) play 50-100 hands and post them on the small stakes forum (ala Clarkmeister's excellent recent posts); (2) stop playing for awhile after that point and digest the feedback others leave, while re-re-re-reading TOP, HEP, HEPFAP, Lee Jones' book, etc.; (3) re-re-examine my hand histories for the past 3000 hands or so; (4) then re-assess where I stand. I still feel confident that I grasp this game very well for my short period of experience (I've been told by unknown, but clearly solid, players in various live games that they respected my play and stayed out of my way) but need to get over the hurdles of clinging to nice hands that I'm sure are beaten, as well as other holes in my game.

Thanks again for all of the posts and I look forward to similar feedback to my future posts.

[Jedi Poker]

Character means to have resilience. That is, to have the ability to bounce back from adversity. Character means to persevere in the face of short-term obstacles. Character means taking responsibility for one's performance. Character means having the ability to stay calm and confident when things are going crazy. Character means having the courage to face (painful) facts and truths.

There is no substitute for character when it comes to beating poker. There is no substitute for adversity for forging one's will, priming one's resiliency, building one's courage, and developing one's discipline - in short, character. Losing streaks are opportunities to strengthen one's character.

A player can not play good poker if there head, heart or your soul are somewhere else.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Jac,

Thanks for apologizing. One reason I rarely go to RGP is that so many posts there are nasty personal attacks. Most of the posts here are sincere attempts to help. When someone inadvertently offends, he apologizes. To me that difference is EXTREMELY important.

Al

[Mochmed]

/forums/images/icons/frown.gif *with tear in my eye* TY everybody, I've had a losing streak for more than a month now and lost around 250BB. I've had ALL kinds of thoughts, had 4 or 5 pauses, read my books, discussed about my pokerplay with my friends, even thought of quitting /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

Feels better after reading this thread tho.