Flush draws aggresive? Check. What about straights? [Archive]

View Full Version : Flush draws aggresive? Check. What about straights?

MikeR

03-19-2005, 09:22 AM

Thanks everyone who gave examples on why it's beneficial to play flush draws aggressively. Paid off huge in a multiway pot earlier in the week. If I flop an open ended straight, do I play it the same way? Not having time to post the question here, I just went ahead and bet the flop, turn, and when I didn't hit it on the river I folded. Now that I'm not involved in the hand, I'll ask you guys. Here's how I played it (and again I have no idea if this is correct)
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, Button folds, UTG calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has 5d Ad (two pair, fives and twos).
MP1 has Kd Ac (two pair, kings and twos).
Outcome: MP1 wins 15.50 BB.

mshalen

03-19-2005, 11:47 AM

Why the bet and reraise? all you have done is drive other players out of the pot on a draw which is the opposite of waht you want. The key part of your question says "multiway pot". Read up on which hands paly well in multiway pots. A reraise is to create a heads up situation. Aggressive does not mean just raise but raise in the proper context. When mp1 raised didn't you put him on a K? Now all you have done is build the pot and you are behind and would have to hit either your draw or somehow catch 2 pair. IF the A had hit and you then bet mp1 would have raised you and you would have gotten at least 2 big bets from him on the river.

elmitchbo

03-19-2005, 01:26 PM

i think the rasing was supposed to be a value bet to build the pot for himself. that's not a terrible idea... and i think that's what the flush draw thread he referenced was all about. i think it's a reasonable play, particularly if you want to call it a semi-bluff. he's putting in $.75 to have a 4.75 to 1 chance at $4.25. that's ok i think. correct me if i'm wrong. i probably would have checked the turn in this situation. straight draws are easier to hide than flush draws and can payoff even more.

johnc

03-19-2005, 03:33 PM

The two suited flop makes this draw much weaker and the overcard further reduces the value of this hand. You won't get top pair with a queen or jack and besides the Q spades or jack spades puts 3 to a flush. On that note, any queen gives some with an ace a straight redraw (a gutshot, but dangerous none the less) - people LOVE to play aces. The 9 of spades, well, you get it. I see this as a check raise situation on the flop b/c: You want to make every effort to buy outs, such as trying to get weak aces out, bottom or middle pairs, jacks, queens and weak flush draws out as well. Fold to a reraise. On the turn, check and fold if someone bets - get your free card. Same for river. Play this weakened draw as cheap as you can and hope for the best.

Zetack

03-19-2005, 03:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold to a reraise. On the turn, check and fold if someone bets - get your free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um...what? If someone bets on the turn he's getting at least 10.5-1 on a 4.75-1 shot. Folding is a huge error.

--Zetack

edit: geez even if you discount all spade and club outs a hundred percent because they might make somebody's flush draw you're getting 10.5-1 on a 10.5-1 shot.

JoshuaD

03-19-2005, 07:07 PM

Regardless of flop action, you have to check this turn. Same with a flush draw.

elmitchbo

03-19-2005, 08:02 PM

i agree that a check raise on the flop would be a good strategy. i also think checking the turn is wise, but i would call a bet in either spot.

Nomad84

03-20-2005, 02:29 AM

Personally, I think the flop play was about what I would do. Ignoring the spade outs and only considering the other straight outs, you have 6 outs that tive you the nut straight. That straight is 3.1:1 against hitting by the river. Of course, even if one of your 6 outs comes in, a spade on the river (or turn, for that matter) is scary. Based on this, I think a bet is good when 7 players are in the hand. After the raise, I'm not sure what I would do. I think that MP1 is not on a drawing hand, otherwise he wouldn't be driving out opponents. I'm also a little unsure about the cold calls in between. I think that you can count on the cold callers following along if you continue to bet, but I'm not sure if it is profitable to 3-bet this. I think 3-betting has benifits since it slows down MP1 later in the hand. It also could give you a better idea of where you stand. However, I think I would call since you are only getting 3:1 on any more money that goes in this round (3 more players) on a 3.1:1 shot that might come in and still lose to a flush. Not sure exactly what I'd do, but I suspect that the EV difference between 3-betting and calling probably isn't too big.

On the flop, I think that given that you 3-bet the flop, a bet is probably good. Had you called the flop raise, I think I would check here. In that case, I would expect MP1 to bet and I would call. If MP1 had capped the flop, I would check here and call his bet. I agree with the river check-fold.

I'm sure I screwed some of that up, so I welcome any comments! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif