Do you pros ever play crappy starting hands like this one

[Mizzles]

How bad is this preflop call?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, SB calls.

River: (10 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

Final Pot: 10 BB

[Peter_rus]

Of course yes.

[Mizzles]

Peter would you have played this any differently?

[Peter_rus]

Actually no. Though i occasionally check turn if UTG is pretty aggro to bluff this queen with his A-high very often.

[DcifrThs]

i can't find a place to play it differently.

i do play "crappy hands" but i usually like to have 54s or better as a general rule....and have a few more customers...

turn bet: yes sb may have a 4, but unless he has 64, you have a bunch of outs and need to make UTG+1 pay to hit his A/K/J whatever combo of that he obviously has (likely AK given the cold call and call on the turn). no way he doesn't reaise a pair on the flop or raise your turn bet if he hit his AQ (slightly likely b/c he may fear a straight...)

a river bet aint bein called unless you're beat.

-Barron

[Sully]

I'm usually going to take a shot at the river here. I've got to believe that you'll steal this pot at least 1 out of 10 times.

And as for the preflop call? Not totally out of line, but as the other poster said, usually better to make sure you have a few more opponents chucking money in there.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
a river bet aint bein called unless you're beat.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]


While I'm newer to the online arena than most of you, I have found some people who do like to call down with unimproved AK - if only to them flash it to show that I had no business calling from the small / big blind with some holding &lt; AK. That said, considering there are three involved, there is a chance the Small Blind has you beat in some way (random 7?) but won't call IF the other calls. So by betting, you MIGHT get called by lesser hands which then would get a better hand to fold.

Granted, I'm getting called by AK as I'm a new guy on Party Poker so invariably a bunch of you are calling me down when you shouldn't as your Poker Tracker stats don't have 1,000,000 hands on me.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[TStoneMBD]

standard preflop call.

i like peter's idea of checking the turn so that UTG might bluff at the queen. i disagree with dci that you need to protect your hand against AJ/AK. you really dont. not only is an ace a tainted out for UTG, but the money you will make when that ace falls more than compensates for when a paint falls that costs you the pot. you are behind to the SB a good portion of the time.

barron also makes a good point himself. he says that players will call down with AK unimproved, which may be the case here. if you bet the turn, it may be correct to bet the river because if UTG calls, it may be difficult for the SB to overcall with a hand that beats yours. betting the river may actually fold the best hand, and you may also be gaining value from that bet. granted, sb probably wont fold a better hand very often, but even if he only folds a small portion of the time, the bet is well worth it.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
That said, considering there are three involved, there is a chance the Small Blind has you beat in some way (random 7?) but won't call IF the other calls. So by betting, you MIGHT get called by lesser hands which then would get a better hand to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

this is an excellent point...

i was assuming that the sb would overcall with his 4 because its pretty obvious the other guy has AK...

betting a marginal hand on the river into a person likely to call with a worse hand but forcing a marginal better hand to overcall is an expert play. the problem is pot size and calling frequency, the bigger the pot, the more likely you are to get called down but also the higher your betting frequency should be since you have to call if checked given the burgeoning size of the pot. its kinda tied to "doing what you must to win it" ... if you were GOING TO CALL the other guys bet on the river, then not betting the river yourself was a mistake...

on party 15/30 i think sb calls with any 4 here...BUT would he fold a better 3 often enough? if so then you must bet.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

i see what your'e saying about the tainted out.

cuts his outs in half really, but you'll get at least a bet if you hit the a.

one thing about the turn river combo though...

if we can play backwards and think a river bet is worth it, then you must bet the turn. if you check the turn, the sb will never fold the 4 to the overcall.

-Barron

[TStoneMBD]

[ QUOTE ]
if we can play backwards and think a river bet is worth it, then you must bet the turn. if you check the turn, the sb will never fold the 4 to the overcall.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
if you bet the turn, it may be correct to bet the river because if UTG calls, it may be difficult for the SB to overcall with a hand that beats yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

i never advocated betting the river if you checked the turn. your post implied that i did.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if we can play backwards and think a river bet is worth it, then you must bet the turn. if you check the turn, the sb will never fold the 4 to the overcall.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
if you bet the turn, it may be correct to bet the river because if UTG calls, it may be difficult for the SB to overcall with a hand that beats yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

i never advocated betting the river if you checked the turn. your post implied that i did.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess it reads that way but i was not trying to imply thats what you said.

just pointing it out. your post was good all i said was that you lose some equity by checking the turn if you plan to bet the river (the general "you" not TStone).

but checking the turn also gives you the protection from a c'r since its probable that other guy will check behind given the action.

but then do you call a river bet from the sb? there is a possibility you actually do have the best hand, although low. pot is kept relatively small but if you're hand is best on the river 16.5% of the time (getting 7:1 on your call assuming the sb bets), then you gotta call.

i think this is a more interesting set of decisions that it at first appears.

when a decision is close for me on the turn in this marginal kind of spot, its a toss up between betting and checking...tough call but i'd still lean towards betting if the sb will fold the 4 to the overcall on the river and checking if that equity doesn't exist.

so in this hand a check is probably better for the reasons you say.

-Barron

[BarronVangorToth]

I think things were fine THROUGH the turn (i.e. betting the turn) but needed to be followed through with a bet on the river. While you might lose short-term, I believe long-term this is the best play given these exact conditions.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[TStoneMBD]

[ QUOTE ]
While you might lose short-term, I believe long-term this is the best play given these exact conditions.


[/ QUOTE ]

what the hell does this mean? this sounds like fancy, uneducated talk for "ev"

[jayheaps]

An argument can be made for just calling the flop and planning to check-raise the turn. If you just call, you will get paid off more when you hit your straight, set or 2 pair and you don't want to knock anyone out, especially if an Ace comes.