New to Razz, few questions

[CardSharpCook]

Just played a short handed razz game with a a player who would call with a king showing and would be seemingly oblivious to the fact that I HAD to be ahead by quite a bit. (ideal situation, I know - of course, he kept hitting ALL NIGHT LONG) Should I be loosening up myself? What if I am showing a jack, he is showing a king, and he calls my complete? ...and is subsequently oblivious to the fact that he is drawing worse than I am. I mean, it has to be right to bet when you know that you are ahead, right? Is there ever a time when his draws out-weigh my currently good hand? Or is it always, I SHOULD bet, he SHOULD call?

In a short-handed game, is there a risk of being too tight? Obviously, you must open up to some degree, but what forms of looseness is ok? (48)T is that good enough to call when he completes with his (XX)5 when you know that he will complete regardless of what XX is? How about (J4)9 vs XXJ? Or (48)9 vs XX8? Again, if he is under he will always complete. Should I ever be re-raising before 4th street with a higher card showing?

The villian in question is not a terrible player, but he would call down with such terrible hands, I could not understand why he kept winning... Is this just Razz? I mean, as a HE player, I see fish win all the time, is this what I found here? Or was he a player that knew more about SH Razz than I did? Of course, I know it is impossible to render a verdict on this, but any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.

CSC

[TheShootah]

You should be pretty pumped although if you stick a K vs. J in a poker analyzer they will be closer than you think depending on the other cards. It's not like KK vs JJ in HE. Normally short handed I would pop it with any hand where my hole card is the lowest. That way on fourth if you catch good again you can take the pot right there. Against players who call with really bad hands I like to keep the pot small on third so that on fourth if I catch good and they catch bad they would be making a mistake in calling. Against players that call everything I just make sure I try to steal less with bad hands and really pound them on the later streets where it gets expensive to chase their draws. Solid play against bad players will always take the money. Don't worry about not getting in their as much as everyone else, because although you are forfeiting more antes, they are paying you off with your good hands. Just remember that you have to loosen up a bit, but really play your players also. Players that are too tight raise alot, and players who call too much value bet more, but also keep in mind that unless there is a double raise on third, that they would be making a mistake on fourth if they call after hitting bad. And their mistakes make you money. /images/graemlins/smile.gif So in conclusion, loosen up, but keep in mind Razz is all about the boards. Also, lowball tend to have the best hand hold up less, so try to not get upset if you take some beats. You will be holding all the money eventually. Let me know how it goes... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[nortonmalc]

Since Razz plays backwards, you have to think backwards. No one is ever ahead on a hand until the 5th card is dealt. In stud, if you are dealt the nuts (AA)A, your hand can never get worse than trip aces. In razz, if you are dealt the nuts (A2)3, your hand is virtually spoiled by having the next two cards come AA or KK. The only time you will ever be certain you're in front is if your opponent has 3 cards on board higher (or counterfieted) than your best 5 card hand. Giving up on a lot of hands, just because you have a face card and someone else has a nice door card, is passing up a lot of opportunity.

Let's say you're dealt (24)Q and your opponent has (XX)6. You bring in he completes, you call. Next card off makes it (24)Q3 for you and (XX)66 for him. You've just gone from being virtually behind to being virtually ahead with one card off the deck. Be aware though that you are never really ahead or behind until 5th street. Let's continue that same hand. On 5th, You have (24)Q39 and he has (XX)66K. Now he needs runner-runner to beat your Q-high, no matter what (XX) are. Plus you've got plenty of cards you can get to improve your Q high to at least 9 high and a chance to draw runner runner to a monster. If you've got two good solid low cards in your hand, I think you are missing out on a lot of opportunity by laying it down with simply one dud card on your first three.

I tend to play razz pretty aggressively though, trying to put people in very difficult decisions if their board gets ugly and mine is nice, even if my hand isn't nearly as good as it appears. Even if the hand gets shown down eventually and I'm found out. The next time my board is pretty and I'm betting heavy again, they may play hands of more dubious quality, paying off my monsters nicely.

[TheShootah]

The situation you mentioned rarely happens. The problem with calling with a queen up is that Razz is a game of who has the better board, just like you showed. Surely more hands occur where the hand with the queen has to lay it down. The situations that can occur are ....

1. Q catches good, and the 6's catch bad. Let's even say that the sixes pair like you mentioned. First off, without even putting this into a hand analyzer, I know the 6's aren't even behind as much as you may think. Also, given the pair, the 6's are gonna be acting in position for the rest of the hand, and him knowing that you have a Q up gives him and easy call, maybe even raise. Other wise if he catches bad and you with your queen catch bad, he can still call, so in the best situation you have on fourth, you are only about even money to take it home.
2. He catches good and you catch bad, of course you look foolish and you lay it down.
3. You both catch bad, you are behind again, and he obviously knows it and can bet, being a card ahead.
4. You both catch good, and he is still winning. In this case you may or may not call, but I still wouldn't. You're a card behind, and if he catches good again on fifth you are in big trouble. Chasing bad hands is a big problem in Razz.

In conclusion, you should consider your board. That is what Razz is all about. In this game that he is talking about, with people calling with terrible hands, there is absolutely no point in playing bad hands. Basically what nortonmalc is advertising in his post is to play your somehow better board (which is clearly worse) and hoping he catches bad (which just evens the score) and then hoping that these bad players that call everything lay it down because they are scared of your Q high board. I don't get it. Why loosen up that much when these people will pay off your good hands? Lay down the Q!! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[beset7]

Nortonmalc can correct me if I'm wrong; but, I think the main point of the post was the conceptual difference between stud high and razz in that your hand is much more undefined on 3rd street. There are no "made" hands until fifth. Though to be honest with you, I know of very few players that could consistently start out with face cards and show a long-term profit That'd be about as loose as I've ever heard someone play Razz.

Personally, I fold the Q if a 6 completes unless I've got a read on the opponent and I think I can muscle him out if he catches bad..

But I think the conceptual point is a very good one. Razz is like playing stud high and only drawing to straights. When you start with a good three card straight and all your straightening cards are live it's usually worth getting to fifth and evaluating your hand unless there is a lot of aggression indicating you are way behind and you dump on fourth when you catch bad. In Razz, you want to start with good starting cards of course, but the value of your hand and/or your opponents hand can change dramatically as the action develops. Simple but excellent point. It can be disorienting to play in a game where a good hand can get ruined if you are used to playing high where a made hand either improves or doesn't improve.

[TheShootah]

I agree that Razz hand values certainly fluctuate and everything can change very quickly, but my point is that his example was pretty poorly chosen, and really the only way that I would be playing a Q low in Razz on third is if I were stealing on 3rd, and it would be in the whole, so that if I catch good on fourth I can take it down. The style he preaches is just about the worst possible for the game the original poster describes. In fact, it's just about bad for all Razz games. Face cards exposed are death!

[nortonmalc]

Beset hit the nail on the head of what I was trying to say. I simply chose a hand with an exposed Q to have a very extreme example of how what is typically perceived to be a bad hand can easily overtake a purported good hand with just one card on 4th street. I wasn't trying to use my example to say that you should play anytime you get a Q and two good cards.

And you are definitely correct that the hand with the Q is not way ahead of the 6 hand after 4th street, since there are no made hands until 5th street, and in this particular example, basically neither player will be comfortable with their hand until 6th at a minimum.

[TheShootah]

I know exactly what you were saying with the example, and I agree to a certain extent. My point is that he was asking for a way to beat a certain game where people are playing their hands poorly. I can see that you mean you should be loosening up quite a bit, and that you are passing up opportunities, but I tend to disagree. Sure, you can consider playing 9's and maybe tens depending on the other door cards, but it seems like what you are saying is that you can afford to play bad hands, hoping to catch up later, because hands are "defined" on 5th. Of course they can get worse or better, but you have to go with the percentages. Against people that will pay off your good hands with bad, there is no point in playing really bad hands, hoping to catch up and get them to lay it down, which they won't. I understand your point that hands can get worse on later streets, unlinke Stud Hi, but I am not quite sure how that is gonna help him beat this game where people are too loose. It seems like you are almost justifying the others play, saying that they can catch up and suck out. I must be missing something here. Sorry if I come off like a jerk, I don't really mean to. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ponyneck]

I think you should usually lay the Q down. I don't like to put chips in the middle when i'm behind. I think that sometimes though(especially shorthanded) you need to make a call with a bad door card just so that you don't get robbed everytime you have a 9 or higher showing. I know that when i see someone who always lays down a bad door card i tend to steal from them more often. In other words I think the only reason to call when your behind is to stop people from running you over all night. Sometimes you might not even be behind.

[TheShootah]

I don't care if people steal my hands when my door card is bad...you should lay them down. The way to make people stop is to reraise on 3rd with your better hands...

[schubes]

I think the only reason to call when your behind is to stop people from running you over all night.

I don't think you can make them reconsider stealing by occasionally defending in the bring-in, but you are giving up a little bit if you always fold with a bad card.

Sometimes you might not even be behind.

If you're even considering defending with a bad doorcard, you should be usually ahead. The games I play, it seems everyone tries to steal with a low card when there is only 1 low card remaining. Some players usually steal when they are the first low card to act. Dealing with a complete steal, if you have 2 good cards, and the cards you need are live, it is worth taking off a card hoping they catch bad and you catch good. (Sklansky recomends this when the ante is large - well at Full Tilt the ante is $1 for 5/10 and $1.50 for 8/16)

Note also you have less reason to defend shorthanded - assuming the late position low cards are stealing the same amount - since the antes are smaller.