A J o with flop of A Q 10 [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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SackUp

03-19-2005, 01:31 AM

The table is really loose. CO is a Lag (37/10/2.4) The two callers are loose and mostly passive.

I don't think folding the flop is right, but what about the turn or river. I figure I might be drawing to a split pot at best so not a whole lot of potential even if the K hits.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 4 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG calls, CO 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

PokerBob

03-19-2005, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The table is really loose. CO is a Lag (37/10/2.4) The two callers are loose and mostly passive.

I don't think folding the flop is right, but what about the turn or river. I figure I might be drawing to a split pot at best so not a whole lot of potential even if the K hits.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 4 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG calls, CO 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line. Raising here will only (a) knock out the other players behind you and (b) potentially get the CO to stop betting into you. I think that with this line you win the max and lose the least.

SackUp

03-19-2005, 02:37 AM

Anyone consider folding the turn or river?

chesspain

03-19-2005, 02:45 AM

This hand looks eerily similar to a hand I played earlier this evening...except that my opponent waited until the turn to checkraise me (with AJ and the gutshot) and another player with his flopped two-pair with AQ, with which he only limped PF ahead of my AJ raise. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Michael Davis

03-19-2005, 02:56 AM

No, I am sure raising the turn and getting other to fold improves your equity. It will let you take the whole pot more often when you straight, will save you the pot sometimes when you two pair (including a Q or T coming on river), and hell, you just might have the best hand (unlikely) and even when you don't you'll probably get a free showdown.

-Michael

SackUp

03-19-2005, 03:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No, I am sure raising the turn and getting other to fold improves your equity. It will let you take the whole pot more often when you straight, will save you the pot sometimes when you two pair (including a Q or T coming on river), and hell, you just might have the best hand (unlikely) and even when you don't you'll probably get a free showdown.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't concerned with KJ after the flop 3 bet? If your raise the turn, what do you do to a 3 bet?

This flop is just so dangerous, I don't see how raising the turn is good at all. There are so many broadway cards there. I think 2 pair is highly likely at the very least and the straight is ultra worrisome. Also even if I hit two pair with a J, this is ultra tainted.

No one else considers a fold on the turn or river. I can't see doing anything more than calling the turn and river UI. And really the only improvement would be for the straight.

afk

03-19-2005, 03:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You aren't concerned with KJ after the flop 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not with your read that CO is loose aggressive. I probably would have played it the same way, though sometimes I'd raise the turn - I'm still working on raises like this.

SackUp

03-19-2005, 03:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You aren't concerned with KJ after the flop 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not with your read that CO is loose aggressive. I probably would have played it the same way, though sometimes I'd raise the turn - I'm still working on raises like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do raise the turn, what is your plan if CO 3 bets? You call down UI or do you fold now?

Also, what are you putting both the EP's on? You think you have both them beat as well? I won't give them that much credit as they are lose as well, but I think they stay in with draws and thus have you drawing to a split pot at best.

Michael Davis

03-19-2005, 03:52 AM

"Also, what are you putting both the EP's on? You think you have both them beat as well? I won't give them that much credit as they are lose as well, but I think they stay in with draws and thus have you drawing to a split pot at best."

No, you don't know who you beat. This is a game of incomplete information. Clearly you cannot fold your hand on the turn, you've got way too much. You then must raise to do what you can to clear the field. An opponent holding something like QJ will have a hard time calling a double bet; if you can get a hand like this to fold, you have given yourself two extra outs. Now if your raising opponent has something like AT, that's an extra two outs to the Q. Now figuring out the exact scenarios in a four-handed situation is going to be next to impossible, but you need to raise to both protect your hand if it is best and to potentially double your number of outs. Note that you will often get a free showdown as you are representing a monster.

If you are threebet, you call and fold the river unimproved. Improvement includes the Q pairing.

By the way, what loose-aggressive opponent wouldn't raise with KJ? Can a loose-aggro player really have anything but QT here?

Folding here would be a huge mistake and whenever you aren't folding you should consider raising. A lot of stuff comes into play on this turn that gets overpreached on this forum, stuff like raising to clean up outs, but this is the time for it.

-Michael

Schizo

03-19-2005, 06:02 AM

I like Michael Davis's line way more than calling down. Your hand is very vulnerable if you are ahead, you have to protect it. The pot is too big to fold. Excellent post Michael.

Schizo

03-19-2005, 06:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are threebet, you call and fold the river unimproved. Improvement includes the Q pairing.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if the T or the 2 pair?

jt1

03-19-2005, 06:22 AM

A loose passive 3 bet into a pfr with an Ace on board. I'm folding the river. I don't think I'd raise the turn. He probably has only two pair, but he might 3 bet you if he's not as passive as you think (and he don't have the straight)

Okay, I might raise the turn. there are so many behind you that it'd probably increase your equity. the fact that CO is passive helps in this regard. Though, a quick mental math check up make me doubt this edit. i think there are 3 people behind you - you have 9 outs if they fold and 6 outs (at most) if they call.... i don't know

Michael Davis

03-19-2005, 06:26 AM

The T or 2 pairing doesn't change the hand at all. If you want to call there you should call when a brick comes off.

-Michael

Schizo

03-19-2005, 06:30 AM

So with the queen pairing, it is showing you that villian most likely limped with AT as opposed to AQ? Is that the reasoning? Or am I missing something?

Michael Davis

03-19-2005, 06:32 AM

Well you beat AT now.

-Michael

SackUp

03-19-2005, 02:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]

By the way, what loose-aggressive opponent wouldn't raise with KJ? Can a loose-aggro player really have anything but QT here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya I agree with much of what you said, including this statement. Unfortunately someone must have told him that KJo is not a great hand. Or he thinks it is a monster and likes to "slow play" it preflop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Given the read, I agree that the turn raise is probably best.

Now what if the player is much more passive postflop? Are we just calling down after the flop 3 bet UI or do you still raise it up to clean up outs?