Wondering about my aggression

[Sifmole]

I have been getting so horribly the past 4 days that I am really shell shocked. I have arrived at a point that I feel like everytime I am raising I am just pumping up a pot for someone else, and so I began to wonder -- "Have I gotten too aggressive and am now just chip spewing.

This hand is a typical hand where I wonder whether my turn bet was stupid or reasonable:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font> ...

[Harv72b]

You missed a preflop raise and a flop bet on this one. The turn bet is fine.

[Stefan Prodan]

You're playing 3/6 and don't even have odds to call one bet on the flop. How is he missing a flop bet here?

And yes, the turn bet is fine.

[Mike Gallo]

I have been getting so horribly the past 4 days that I am really shell shocked. I have arrived at a point that I feel like everytime I am raising I am just pumping up a pot for someone else, and so I began to wonder -- "Have I gotten too aggressive and am now just chip spewing.

I did not read the rest of the post or any responses.

Each hand happens independantly of one another. You must overcome this mental hurdle if you want to have success.

If your playing too loose aggressively then you need to reevaluate, however if your playing premium hand with raises, and getting beat, it happens. Ride the wave.

Ok, I read the hand.

I do not like the open limp. If you want to play the hand open raise. I do not like the preflop play. Raise it up.

I like the bet on the turn. if someone hit the flush or straight thats poker.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
You're playing 3/6 and don't even have odds to call one bet on the flop. How is he missing a flop bet here?


[/ QUOTE ]

That was after the preflop raise.

Against just 1 LP limper + blinds, and after both blinds have checked to Hero, do you really think he doesn't have the best hand on the flop?

[CallMeIshmael]

Raise preflop.

Bet the flop.

Bet the turn.

Also...I think this is a flop bet (my line above assumes a PFR), but I'm not sure how to play such a strong hand in an unraised pot.

[Stefan Prodan]

I'm just not sure he has enough equity to put a bet in on the flop. I think you have a stronger chance of chasing people out after a PF raise though so it becomes more correct, so it's probably close.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
You're playing 3/6 and don't even have odds to call one bet on the flop. How is he missing a flop bet here?


[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't have odds to *call* a bet assuming he has 6 outs.

BUT, hero is good here A LOT. His hand needs some protection.

[Stefan Prodan]

Here's my problem: You don't really know where you stand, and probably won't until the end.

Suppose you get called in one or two places, and the card that came comes. Now you might be ahead, but you also might be behind. Also, it's not 6 outs. I would be very hesitant to give him more than 5 outs. You really are going to say that his ace and jack outs, especially the hearts, are good 100% of the time? I really doubt that. You could have reverse implied odds working for them in this case.

That being said, there are days I would bet this the whole way and just try to push everyone off. It would really depend on the players, but I would probably have to see them make some folds first.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my problem: You don't really know where you stand, and probably won't until the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you check and the button bets, you won't know where you stand either. I don't think you can check/call here. Thats way too weak. Its either bet or check/fold. Your hand is too good to check/fold, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it's not 6 outs. I would be very hesitant to give him more than 5 outs. You really are going to say that his ace and jack outs, especially the hearts, are good 100% of the time? I really doubt that. You could have reverse implied odds working for them in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because the description of your hand doesnt begin with "a pair of..." doesn't mean its not a made hand. In the land of no pairs, A-J high is king! (well, almost, but I dont think AK or AQ are much of a worry here). You very likely have a made hand here, that they are drawing against.

Also, *if* your ace and jack of hearts aren't good, then that means your ace-jack high is! (this assumes that anyone who flopped both a flush draw AND a pair is betting. Or checkraising, at which point you can dump).


[ QUOTE ]
That being said, there are days I would bet this the whole way and just try to push everyone off. It would really depend on the players, but I would probably have to see them make some folds first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting this hand down all the way (UI) is terrible.

[Stefan Prodan]

[ QUOTE ]

I think betting this hand down all the way (UI) is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said I'd have to see the people first but at 2/4 you frequently see people that call all the way for whatever reason then fold at the river, enough to make it profitable. I probably wouldn't continue this line if a heart came, but if it doesn't, this line has made me some decent money in the past. Anyway, so what would you do if you don't improve on the turn? Check-fold?

Also I don't think check-fold is too weak on the flop when the pot is unraised. This is a small pot, you don't have to win every pot.

And both blinds are still in the pot, and I very rarely see people bet on the flop on low-limit party without a good draw or top pair. I don't think they're necessarily betting if they have middle or bottom pair. I'm not saying they won't, I just wouldn't be surprised if all those factors together made it unprofitable to put any more money in on the flop overall, and if not, to make it a very close decision.

[Stefan Prodan]

Oops.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my problem: You don't really know where you stand, and probably won't until the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is doubly true if you check the flop. CO doesn't have to have a made hand or even an A to bet the flop if it's checked to him. The blinds should know that, and may call his bet with much weaker hands than they would if Hero had bet. There is also the plain and simple truth that Hero probably has the best hand at that time, and that there are far more turn cards that will hurt him than help him.

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose you get called in one or two places, and the card that came comes. Now you might be ahead, but you also might be behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is entirely independent of the flop bet. Suppose Hero bets and all 3 opponents fold? Does that change the play of the hand? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Understand, Hero's outs have nothing to do with whether or not it's correct to bet the flop in this situation. It has to do with how likely Hero is to be in the lead right now. What happens if Hero checks the flop, bets this turn, and gets called (or raised) by a single high heart that would've folded to a single bet on the flop? Or if Hero checks and the turn card is not an A or a heart, but gives one of his opponents (who would have folded on the flop) a pair?

If I click the wrong button preflop and end up in this exact same situation, I am betting this flop something approaching 100% of the time.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Also I don't think check-fold is too weak on the flop when the pot is unraised. This is a small pot, you don't have to win every pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think check/folding this flop with 3 limpers is not good.
I also think not open raising from MP is not good.
I think open raising from MP would make betting the flop easy.

Sifmole: Sounds like normally this is a hand you'd be playing pretty aggressively. If you're getting beats put on you left and right you really need to revaluate hands like this and decide if your downswing is negatively affecting your play.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said I'd have to see the people first but at 2/4 you frequently see people that call all the way for whatever reason then fold at the river, enough to make it profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does happen. BUT, the hands they are folding are almost ALL worse than yours. With few exceptions, the only time I'm betting AJ high in position on the river is with the expressed intent of folding a suspected AQ or AK high.

The flop and turn betting rounds are very different from the river, in that many hands that are worse and AJ high will call your bet. This does not occur on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, so what would you do if you don't improve on the turn? Check-fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play some poker. This decision involves:

-who called me (and their position relative to me)
-how many people called me
-the texture of the next card (obviously autobetting an A or J, and I don't mind a board pairing card)

I might put another bet in, or that might be it for me depending on the situation.

[ QUOTE ]
Also I don't think check-fold is too weak on the flop when the pot is unraised. This is a small pot, you don't have to win every pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are making it a habit of limping with big offsuit cards, you are going to be playing a lot of pots like this. You'd better play them well.

2 people have checked to a non-raiser. The button didn't raise an open limper. No one seems to like their hand or want this pot. TAKE IT!

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
If I click the wrong button preflop and end up in this exact same situation , I am betting this flop something approaching 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I loved that.

[Stefan Prodan]

[ QUOTE ]


If you are making it a habit of limping with big offsuit cards, you are going to be playing a lot of pots like this. You'd better play them well.

2 people have checked to a non-raiser. The button didn't raise an open limper. No one seems to like their hand or want this pot. TAKE IT!

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I make a habit of that? I didn't say I wouldn't raise preflop, I was just discussing how to play assuming I didn't.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop.

Bet the flop.

Bet the turn.

Also...I think this is a flop bet (my line above assumes a PFR), but I'm not sure how to play such a strong hand in an unraised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your logic about being best here, but I do want to caution all of you in this exchange to go read Mathew Kagan's "Opposite Man" article in the March '05 2+2 internet mag here (http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/current/kagan0305.html). We need to be sure we're ahead much of the time before we bet this flop UI. And we need to have a plan for how to play the rest of it if we do or do not improve.

Leaving aside the appropriateness of the pre-flop and flop action, the turn bet is mandatory.