what are weak tight players thinking about?

[TStoneMBD]

as poker players, we generally assume that what we are doing is correct and that what other people are doing is incorrect. as a player who goes by the guidelines instructed by these forums, i gauge my level of skill in comparison to other players when i see them doing things that the players here advise against. when i see a weak tight player, i may think that he might be a small winner, but i know that hes too tight and i will profit from having him in the game. when i see someone too loose i obviously think they are a fish.

what are weak-tight players thinking? are the guys who pack 10VPIPs saying to themselves that all the guys with 19VPIPs are just way too loose? or, is it that they are simply more rational than most poker players and know that they are not good enough to profit off playing with a 19VPIP, so they play within their limits? do they know that the 19VPIPs are better and are simply playing this tight because they think that they dont have the skills in order to profit from playing a game as loose as 19VPIPs do?

[mr pink]

i always thought being weak-tight was more of a mentality than anything else, not so much based on how many hands you play.

weak-tight example:

2 limpers, hero raises w/KK, button coldcalls, blinds drop.

flop: A 4 7 rainbow

check, check, hero "knows somebody out there has the ace" and checks, button bets, call, fold, hero folds...

weak.

[DemonDeac]

thats the more interesting question
they cant honestly think they will win the hand
ill never get it

[BluffTHIS!]

Weak-tight players are always thinking about the NUTS. Either they have them or they assume the other player does and play/fold accordingly. The other thing they think about is the blinds/antes and how they are being eaten alive by same since they find so few hands and situations to play.

[ErrantNight]

This, apparently. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1951779&page=3&view=e xpanded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=)

[A_C_Slater]

Are you saying you started out playing Tight Aggressive poker right away? I thought almost all 2+2 er's started out playing weak tight (tight passive) and then eventually got more aggressive as they learned more.

Were you a LAG when you started out?

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
as poker players, we generally assume that what we are doing is correct and that what other people are doing is incorrect. as a player who goes by the guidelines instructed by these forums, i gauge my level of skill in comparison to other players when i see them doing things that the players here advise against. when i see a weak tight player, i may think that he might be a small winner, but i know that hes too tight and i will profit from having him in the game. when i see someone too loose i obviously think they are a fish.

what are weak-tight players thinking? are the guys who pack 10VPIPs saying to themselves that all the guys with 19VPIPs are just way too loose? or, is it that they are simply more rational than most poker players and know that they are not good enough to profit off playing with a 19VPIP, so they play within their limits? do they know that the 19VPIPs are better and are simply playing this tight because they think that they dont have the skills in order to profit from playing a game as loose as 19VPIPs do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you equating a 10 percent vpip with weak tightness?

[TripleH68]

I am well qualified to answer this question.

<font color="blue">A weak-tight player is thinking...</font>

"I have to pay 2 more BB to see that I am beat here. I am going to fold and save those bets."

"I hate going to showdown and losing."

"This opponent is a maniac. He is going to keep raising and this makes me uncomfortable. My hand is not close enough to the nuts..."

"My hand is dominated."

<font color="red">What a weak-tight player is NOT thinking...</font>

"This is a big pot. I want this pot."

"I may have the best hand here."

"Let's build a pot here on the flop in case I hit my draw."

"This bettor is loose. I am going to raise and isolate him."

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">A weak-tight player is thinking...</font>

"I have to pay 2 more BB to see that I am beat here. I am going to fold and save those bets."

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmm.......ok............

[reubenf]

Maybe they read Play Poker Like the Pros.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
what are weak-tight players thinking? are the guys who pack 10VPIPs saying to themselves that all the guys with 19VPIPs are just way too loose? or, is it that they are simply more rational than most poker players and know that they are not good enough to profit off playing with a 19VPIP, so they play within their limits? do they know that the 19VPIPs are better and are simply playing this tight because they think that they dont have the skills in order to profit from playing a game as loose as 19VPIPs do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that sounds about right.

I'm at 11vpip/6.5pfr playing .5/1 after reading SSHE for the first few times. I really have no idea how to play so many hands profitably at least for right now.

My ag factor is

flop = 3.77
turn = 2.54
river = lets not talk about that for now, i am starting to value bet more. i promise.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
what are weak-tight players thinking? are the guys who pack 10VPIPs saying to themselves that all the guys with 19VPIPs are just way too loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

We have different definitions of weak tight. Weak tight to mean means both playing tight pre flop, but giving up too easily post flop. Not playing too tight per flop.

Weak tight play minimises potential losses. So it makes sense /images/graemlins/confused.gif if you want to put a cap on your losses, but don’t care much if you win or not. Although I think most weak tight players are just playing scared money.

Playing too tight around 10VPIP is a good style for beginners. It has to be balanced by ultra aggressive tenacious play post flop. The play is simple and should be good enough to beat most games.

[Gbob]

Well, I'm weak tight when I'm playing badly so I guess I can field this one.

I started off, like most players, a loose gambling card chaser. As one would imagine, I lost more often than I won. Didn't matter. I had fun, and it's only money.

The next stage of my poker development was becoming weak tight. I started learning how the game was played, and I started caring about how much I won or lost at a table. I was playing with loose agressive players, so playing tight turned me from someone who lost most of the time to someone who pretty much broke even and made a bit of money every week or so. It's addictive. Allow yourself to be passive, and let the maniacs bet into you.

Let's take an example. A flush draw. I know that the majority of the time the flush won't hit. I would look at my stack and think "I can't see throwing money at something that won't pay off even half the time". I call or check. I then hit it and then I think "if I bet people will fold. I'll just sit here." Sure enough people bet big trying to bluff. I make a small raise and collect the pot.

Now, anyone who knows anything about pot odds can see the flaw in this thinking.

Finally I hit the next stage of my development where I became tight, yet agressivley persued every pot. When I'm at my best I now have a great table image for chasing people off, and the willingness to wait for my shots.

If I go on tilt, I regress back to being a weak tight player and tread water untill I realize the terrible missed chances I passed up.

[Mike]

On an average session there are at least six at the table. I would say they also think:

I only have $xx.xx today, I can't call that bet/raise

I only have tptk and someone in this pot will chase me down

There is a three flush/straight and my set is no good because it's lower than the biggest board card

[PassiveCaller]

These players are thinking more about themselves and how "their holding" is beat or bad. They tend to be more negative of the good in borderline situations and in situations that shouldn't be as borderline. Basically the cup is half empty too often and not half full often enough.

... Every overcard is scary /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TStoneMBD]

some great posts here.

i just wanted to mention that i do know what a weak-tight player is, i was just using the preflop stats as an example.

[txsooner317]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing too tight around 10VPIP is a good style for beginners. It has to be balanced by ultra aggressive tenacious play post flop. The play is simple and should be good enough to beat most games.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. It is a simple style and good enough to beat most low limit games, but playing hands like 76s after several loose passive callers is part of holdem poker. Beginners should learn that from the start as well. Playing the tight aggressive preflop style like the books suggest will give a VPIP about 10% lower than the table average, that’s tight enough. Increase the post flop aggression after you get more experience and confidence.

Besides, getting lots of 10% VPIP players is bad for the game. The fish need to occasionally win those multiplayer big pots with their J5s, otherwise poker wouldn’t be fun anymore.

JMHO

[EasilyFound]

What does "10VPIP" mean?

[TStoneMBD]

this is some really bad logic. a new player starting out wont know when suited connectors become profitable. its much better if you just tell them not to play suited connectors at all.

new players should really start out playing tight poker, and develop a more optimal style as they progress.

[Gbob]

I agree. Confidence is a big factor in playing a good game. What gives more confidence than winning? In low level games you don't need to be fancy to make a profit at the table. Playing tight won't win a great deal of money, but it'll keep you from losing and that helps to give a new player a proper base.

For me, my journey is one of learning new tricks at every session, eventually forming a good catalog of moves. I'm not sure if I could have gotten as far if I didn't learn how to play tight at first.

Then again, I think it's easier to teach an agressive and fearless player how to play better than it is a timid player. For most people, however, playing tight is a good way to start.

[TStoneMBD]

quite frankly, i think that if you are just starting out and have to play weak-tight to avoid losing money, or in order to make a small profit, you should just not play. or, you should not play very much. instead, you just be cruising the forums 40 hours a week. that is how you will learn. if you search out from the archives posts from when i first starting coming here, you will see that i didnt know a damn thing. 70% of everything ive learned about poker is from these forums. 20% is from experience and 10% is from books.

[elmitchbo]

i think it's smart to start out very tight. i certainly did, and i still lean that way. i have to force myself to get aggresive with holdings that are sub-nuts. i realize now the importance of taking down pots with out a showdown by being aggressive post flop, by i think thats a difficult skill that requires significant analysis of the hand. playing super tight prevents you from being in tough situations. you have really good cards, and the flop hits you or it doesn't. thats the best way to limit your downside, which i believe is important while you're learning. playing poker is a skill that needs to be learned piece by piece. if you're learning to juggle you don't jump straight from 3 balls to 5 torches. you add one thing at a time, you get comfortable with it, and then you add something else.

[PairTheBoard]

I'm getting dizzy from all these VPIPS, LAG, pfr, tptk ...

Do we have a Facts Page somewhere to explain all these whatchamacallits?

PairTheBoard

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting dizzy from all these VPIPS, LAG, pfr, tptk ...

Do we have a Facts Page somewhere to explain all these whatchamacallits?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably, but I'll help out here because it's easier than finding a FAQ page and linking it.

VPIPS: A percentage computed by PokerTracker that gives the amount of time a player voluntarily enters a pot.

LAG: Loose-Aggressive. Players that play a lot of hands and raise/bet a lot. A maniac is a very loose-aggressive player. This style generally doesn't work in limit, but can be VERY effective in no limit when used properly.

PFR: Pre-flop raiser, or pre-flop raise percentage. A statistic used to measure how LAG a player is.

TPTK: Top pair, top kicker. For example, holding AK on a AJ5 board.

[rob0506]

Some people that are being referred to as weak tight may be playing proper based on poker theory. Ok, I still play a bit weak tight sometimes, but since many players are very aggressive it may make this a correct play. i.e. if they tend to call too much, encourage them to call. If they tend to bet too much, encourage them to bet, etc etc

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
quite frankly, i think that if you are just starting out and have to play weak-tight to avoid losing money, or in order to make a small profit, you should just not play. or, you should not play very much. instead, you just be cruising the forums 40 hours a week. that is how you will learn. if you search out from the archives posts from when i first starting coming here, you will see that i didnt know a damn thing. 70% of everything ive learned about poker is from these forums. 20% is from experience and 10% is from books.

[/ QUOTE ]

For any new players reading this thread, read this post again and let this sink in. It's very good advice. Learning here is free, learning in a game will often cost you money.

Personally, most of my knowledge is self-taught because I started playing long before I read this forum or books. But I have learned things MUCH faster by reading them on this forum than by learning them myself by playing. I wish I knew about this three years ago.

[Tommy Angelo]

One batch of stats I'd really like to know about myself (at B&amp;M LHE) is my VPIP from each seat. Wouldn't that be some dandy data to know about yourself and others? Does online databasery do that (yet)?.

Tommy

[Soviet Exile]

Yes, Tommy, it does. Very nifty. Also computes BB per hand from each seat, among other things. Maybe somebody and post a screen shot of the position tab in Poker Tracker.

[PairTheBoard]

Thanks PF.

PTB

[TStoneMBD]

this is one of the major reasons why i decided to start taking up online play. i can determine where my leaks lie, what seats im losing money from, what hands show negative expectations, which hands im not playing enough of, seeing that i raise too much, seeing that i limp too much, etc. its quite a handy dandy thing.

[LinusKS]

I might be able to answer that, since I've been accused of being weak-tight.

First, my stats: My VPIP is 13.55, a little over the 10% you cited. On the other hand, my BB/100 is 2.72, so maybe I've been on a good run. Or perhaps my BB/100 would be even higher if I played KT off from UTG.

But I can tell you what I'm thinking about is Do I have the best hand? Do I have the odds to go on? Can I make my opponent fold?

If the answer is no, I don't play.

I don't think having a high VPIP in and of itself makes you good. I think being good is about making the right mathematical choices, at every stage of the game.

[ QUOTE ]
as poker players, we generally assume that what we are doing is correct and that what other people are doing is incorrect. as a player who goes by the guidelines instructed by these forums, i gauge my level of skill in comparison to other players when i see them doing things that the players here advise against. when i see a weak tight player, i may think that he might be a small winner, but i know that hes too tight and i will profit from having him in the game. when i see someone too loose i obviously think they are a fish.

what are weak-tight players thinking? are the guys who pack 10VPIPs saying to themselves that all the guys with 19VPIPs are just way too loose? or, is it that they are simply more rational than most poker players and know that they are not good enough to profit off playing with a 19VPIP, so they play within their limits? do they know that the 19VPIPs are better and are simply playing this tight because they think that they dont have the skills in order to profit from playing a game as loose as 19VPIPs do?

[/ QUOTE ]

[TStoneMBD]

yah your VPIP is too low. i dont know what limit youre playing at, but its too low. either way, you are pulling in a decent BB/100 so at least youre winning. however, there is definitely room for improvement, that i can assure you. that doesnt mean that you should just go playing more hands because youve been labled weaktight, you should play what you can make profitable. however, i definitely consider 13.5VPIP weak tight, no matter what BB/100 you pull in. at 3/6 my VPIP is 19.5 with 15PFR and im averaging a little over 4BB/100 atm.

[bdk3clash]

Guys: Quoting your "BB/100" like it's some sort of measurable aspect of your poker-playing style is silly. It's just your results (over an unknown sample size, BTW), and it isn't that interesting or relevant to what's being discussed here.

[TStoneMBD]

its only over 15k hands, so it could clearly just be variance and that im actually a losing player. im not trying to brag, i dont find it impressive at all that im beating 3/6. i posted the stats because i was trying to argue that maybe having that fold % on the river really isnt poor play. if i was sustaining a 4BB/100 hand as my true win rate, would you argue that anybody with a 43% folds the river rate must be making a mistake?

[TStoneMBD]

ignore my last post, i thought i was in a different thread. :X

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Or perhaps my BB/100 would be even higher if I played KT off from UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think everyone's VP$IP would be higher if they started playing KTo UTG. I don't think anyone serious here is doing that often. /images/graemlins/wink.gif (KTs on the other hand..)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think having a high VPIP in and of itself makes you good. I think being good is about making the right mathematical choices, at every stage of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I just think you could loosen up a bit and make a bit more money. As an extra benefit, it's a ton more fun.

[rob0506]

I am new to poker tracker (love it!!!) so correct me if I am wrong. It seems that you can't classify a player as weak-tight just from the VPIP. Loose or tight, sure. But weak? My understanding of VPIP is that it's just the percentage of hands that you put money in the pot voluntarily. It doesn't specify f you limped and called or raised and bet.

[Triumph36]

This board is great for learning but nothing beats experience. Maybe at limit where there's a very limited amount of things an opponent can do, it's possible to learn a lot without playing much, but at no limit, learning how to win means examining players' betting patterns and how much they bet.

I don't think that new players are told to play 'weak-tight'. To me, weak-tightness happens post-flop, when players become convinced they are dominated/beat and lose value bets because of it. I think most new players don't think that way because they haven't seen things like set over set or flush over flush. It's the ancient rocks at casinos who play weak-tight, who don't play AK because 'an ace or king never hits', or don't play KQ because they 'always' lose to AK. Weak tightness usually consists of pessimistic superstitions that cause a player to be afraid of losing his or her money.

[AncientPC]

I think it has a big deal to do with a player's confidence where TP-P players are more risk averse and more worried about not losing money.

The fish and maniacs will pay off a tight-weak player, but a thinking player will push the tight-weak player off a lot of pots, play hands with higher implied odds (like small PPs or suited connectors), or avoid him completely.

[pzhon]

A weak-tight player with TT, heads up, puts his opponent on a superposition of AKs, KQs, and QJs, of all different suits. Any observed overcard will resolve the hand, and TT will have 2 outs. Failing that, two to a flush on the board will give the opponent two overcards and a flush draw, a favorite over TT with two cards to come.

More seriously, many players do not seem to value all money equally. Some players overvalue money gained from bluffing. Some undervalue money saved by folding. Weak-tight players might undervalue the money they get from value betting and raising, and overvalue the costs of calling down.

[PokerMike]

[ QUOTE ]
if you search out from the archives posts from when i first starting coming here, you will see that i didnt know a damn thing. 70% of everything ive learned about poker is from these forums. 20% is from experience and 10% is from books.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had read ZERO books on poker by the time i was 8-tabling 3/6. These forums taught me everything i needed to know. They are invaluable.

[xpander]

When I first started out, I was almost always afraid my hand was second best. Weak-tight players are tighter than most preflop to avoid situations with smaller edges and marginal hands. The edge needs to be clear before they become aggressive. A lot of their misguided thinking comes from blanket statements and poor rules of thumb (i.e. "Fit or fold", "Never draw to an inside straight"). And I think most are unaware of EV and try to win pots, not money.

Just my two cents.

[Monty Cantsin]

I think pzhon has it exactly right. In addition to mis-valuing different types of money I think a lot of weak/tight players overvalue comfort - ie. they place a very high value on avoiding the pain of losing.

/mc

[puzzlemoney]

As I read this, I wonder (as I'm always fairly sure I'm not being aggressive enough yet):

Does too much poker reading help us to play more weakly? I'm fairly new to the game, and I have done more reading than playing (perhaps not literally, but it feels like it sometimes--I've definitely learned more from books and forums than from actual play at this point).

It seems like everything you read, though, talks about the nuts--drawing to your nut straights and flushes, reading the board for hidden straights, looking out for the possible full house when the board is paired. Except for SSHE, you rarely hear about how often your marginal hands can win pots.

Does anybody else believe that a lot of reading (books, particularly--the forums here certainly advocate a more aggressive style) creates a more fearful mood for beginners? That an emphasis on how to get that unbeatable hand is slowing inexperienced players down? Even books that are regarded as good by most people hereabouts spend a lot of time talking about how to avoid losing to big hands, and how to make monsters of your own...

...Apropos of nothing, really; a couple of posts here got me to thinking about it...

[johnc]

Weak-tight players are always worried about the "monsters in the closet". I know this because many, many times I've heard them mumble, act disapointed, or basically fall apart when circumstances don't work out to their benefit such as when an overcard hits, or the boards pairs. They make statments such as "I don't raise with AA because I always lose with them" (I can't count the # of times I've this!!). They are defeatists. I like playing with them because they can be relatively easy to push around and tend to be transparent in their play. The players I can't seem to "crack" are the very LGPs who love to gamble - right now that's my biggest leak - big time!

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1951779&amp;page=3&amp;view=e xpanded&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for a hilarious link

[StellarWind]

There is a lot of discussion of tight/passive players in this thread. I don't consider that tight/passive and weak-tight are the same thing at all.

Weak-tight players are an inferior form of TAG. Their preflop play is generally in the TAG range and their postflop play is reasonably aggressive. Weak-tight players are distinguished from good TAGs in two major respects:

1. They play too tight on the flop. They apply the fit-or-fold concept found in various beginner books to many playable flops.

2. They are often folders, dropping many good hands on the big streets because someone took a shot at them. Some weak-tights don't have this problem.

In contrast, the better tight/passives:

1. Avoid many good preflop raises. They prefer to see the flop before investing extra money.

2. Play most of the flops they should be playing but in a passive way.

3. Frequently slowplay and trap as a deliberate strategy.

4. Miss many value bets but some bluff appropriately.

5. Rarely fold the best hand on the turn or river.

Weak-tights evolve into strong players by gradually learning to play more types of hands and developing shorthanded skills. They are truly baby TAGs and are on the correct road.

Tight/passive players have embraced a different approach to the game that is moderately profitable but only in low-limit games. They progress by becoming more skillful at what they do (especially trapping) but need to unlearn some basic things before they can become truly good players.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
I might be able to answer that, since I've been accused of being weak-tight.

First, my stats: My VPIP is 13.55, a little over the 10% you cited. On the other hand, my BB/100 is 2.72, so maybe I've been on a good run. Or perhaps my BB/100 would be even higher if I played KT off from UTG.

But I can tell you what I'm thinking about is Do I have the best hand? Do I have the odds to go on? Can I make my opponent fold?

If the answer is no, I don't play.

I don't think having a high VPIP in and of itself makes you good. I think being good is about making the right mathematical choices, at every stage of the game.



[/ QUOTE ]

You definitely don't want to be adding KTo UTG to your range of hands. Even us 20 VPIPers aren't playing that.