KJ in the hijack with james282

[bicyclekick]

A mediocre player who plays liek 30/11/1 limps ep, a shitty player checks his posted bb in mp3, I limp K/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif in the high-jack, co folds, james282 limps on the button. sb folds, bb who is ok enough and not a donk checks(he's like 23/14/1.8).

Flop comes K/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif
bb bets, ep calls, poster mucks, i call, james calls.

turn 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
bb bets, ep mucks, I call, james raises, bb folds, I 3 bet.

[SinCityGuy]

When I see a bad player limp early, then a dead money post in MP who doesn't like his hand very much, I'm raising from the hijack with KJo.

[Paluka]

I would have played every street differently basically. Preflop raising seems much better than calling with the dead money and a strong player on the button who you would prefer didn't get involved. I would raise the flop for value and once again to try and keep the button out in case he has a hand like A8s or A5s, and if he calls 2 cold I can start to worry about 88 and 55. If I don't raise the flop I certainly raise the turn, but when the button raises the turn instead now I really worry about 88 and 55 and KQ and I don't 3 bet.

[James282]

Just for more info on the hand, this at a limit above where I usually play---a game I'm sinking my teeth into but am admittedly not totally comfortable with(money wise). BK knows this during the hand, if that changes anything.
-James

[bicyclekick]

not pre-flop raising I agree is a mistake. Usually I woulda raised it...at the time I said "you're getting a little too loose aggressive pre-flop" and opted to call. My full table pfr these days is like 14-15% maybe.

I don't think that's the interesting part of the hand though.

The flop and turn decisions are much more interesting IMO.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
Just for more info on the hand, this at a limit above where I usually play---a game I'm sinking my teeth into but am admittedly not totally comfortable with(money wise). BK knows this during the hand, if that changes anything.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, I do? I had no idea you weren't comfortable yet (no joke)...so no, it didnt' affect the way I played the hand.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just for more info on the hand, this at a limit above where I usually play---a game I'm sinking my teeth into but am admittedly not totally comfortable with(money wise). BK knows this during the hand, if that changes anything.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, I do? I had no idea you weren't comfortable yet (no joke)...so no, it didnt' affect the way I played the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, woops. Nevermind then.
-James

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
at the time I said "you're getting a little too loose aggressive pre-flop" and opted to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

see, im not the only one who talks to himself...

as for the hand, i like the flop play but why just call again, are you afraid to lose james? that 2d was the perfect card...

did you want to entice him to raise his probably weak king (KTs) or under pair ace overcard against the bad player putting you on a connected middle pair w/ a flush draw maybe (but if that were the case i'd raise if i were you and check behind the river and bet if improved...)

i think you played the hand very well if you think james would raise but if not i think you left some money on the table on the turn vs. the people you described who acted ahead of you.

-Barron

[mike l.]

ok so the turn. what's your reasoning there? because that seems like a good place to raise. as it worked out the 3 bet was brilliant, but it usually wont go that way. usually youll call and let button call along with a nice clean 5 outer behind you. no good.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing systematic. I just look over hands and different groups of hands from time to time to get a feel for things. Also look at position and how i'm fairing etc. I guess I don't really look all that in depth.

I spend more time thinking and trying to understand why the good players are doing what they're doing based on hands they post or situations that arrise.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was your response in the self-evaluation thread.


[ QUOTE ]
A mediocre player who plays liek 30/11/1 limps ep, a shitty player checks his posted bb in mp3, I limp KJ in the high-jack, co folds, james282 limps on the button. sb folds, bb who is ok enough and not a donk checks(he's like 23/14/1.8).

Flop comes K85
bb bets, ep calls, poster mucks, i call, james calls.

turn 2
bb bets, ep mucks, I call, james raises, bb folds, I 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I see why you've made $100K so far this yr. I'd never play that hand that way. I would have predictably raised pre-flop and the turn. Interesting line.

[skp]

Bingo.

I really like the turn three bet (as a strong player like James would know that it's silly to slowplay a set on the flop when three players have already called the flop bet). He can't have two pairs given the cards on board. So, James probably has a weaker king or something like Ad5d (less likely).

But all this assumes that BK knew that James would raise if BK just called and that of course is untenable. BK should have raised the turn himself. But yes, the 3 bet is very very good (I wouldn't have been able to find it at the tables particularly when multitabling).

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I see why you've made $100K so far this yr. I'd never play that hand that way. I would have predictably raised pre-flop and the turn. Interesting line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising pre-flop is most definately the correct play. I blew it there.

The post-flop action is interesting to me. A lot of times I'd raise that flop, but honestly I thought there was a decent enough chance the bb had a better hand than I (such as a set or 2 pair) and I wasn't scared of james at the time and didn't feel that raising wasn't really protecting my hand from many of james's hands and if he called I'd re-evaluate.

I think I should be popping the turn here. I'm not positive though as I think a lot of the times the player in the bb is going to have a big hand and 3 bet and dammit i wanna make sure I get to showdown. I also really don't think james has much. Something like KT, K9s, A8s or a5s with a backdoor draw etc, and not 55 or 88 cause I think he would have raised those pre-flop and he's going to fold most of the time and when he just calls he's most likely got a 3-5 outer and I can live with taht.

Then again, maybe my thinking was flawed.

[skp]

I don't think that you "live" with giving James his 3 to 5 outer for a cheap price. Don't forget that he is not your only opponent. bb is there as well. If he also has 3 to 5 outs, it's imperative to get one of them out and James is the one most likely to get out.

[mach3]

After the BB folds on the turn, I really like the 3bet. I guess you find out pretty quickly if you're beat by 88 or 55.

I'm curious - James, would you have raised 55 preflop in that spot? Maybe 88. Was this 50/100?

[gonores]

I would like the 3bet more if BB stuck around. The way you played, you're basically forcing James to fold any hand you beat and call/raise any hand that beats you. With an extra player, James could convince himself you had a pair + flush draw or something of the sort. Once you call the turn, I much more like c/ring the river with the obligatory fold to a 3-bet.

However, like the others have said, raising the flop is the obvious play.

[DcifrThs]

like i said before, i think a raise on the turn was in order unless you, for some reason you felt james was raising...i mean you really gave him a chance to play dead on correct by calling...

but seriously, once you saw him raise, given his action, i think a 3bet was, again, correct...

i wanted to take this opportunity though to point out that while many players can play well pre and on the flop, it takes a notch above to 3 bet there. so bk, well done...and its clear why post flop play is so amazingly complex and why the turn, especially, is the hardest street...

shoulda raised, but given the non raise, expert play.

-Barron

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't scared of james at the time and didn't feel that raising wasn't really protecting my hand from many of james's hands and if he called I'd re-evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

K2s, A8o, prob 69s, 79s. etc

[ QUOTE ]
as a strong player like James would know that it's silly to slowplay a set on the flop when three players have already called the flop bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I slowplay there A LOT and i don't think it's a mistake, given the players inbetween if the action happens the same on the turn then i've just made a ton more so it needs to happen a small percentage of the time. Moreso, if BB does check it's possible EP takes up the betting and i trap him and BK there.

There's also little chance of someone 3 betting the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
He can't have two pairs given the cards on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

K8s is def most and K5s wouldn't surprise me.

[ QUOTE ]
The way you played, you're basically forcing James to fold any hand you beat and call/raise any hand that beats you

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd love for James to fold A8 A5, him folding KT K9 K,x-no2pair would suck and against them the best line is to calll and bet the river.

All in all i can see james having a big hand here but i can see him having hands making a free-showdown-raise-2-people-in-the-hopes-someone-folds-a-better-hand.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
After the BB folds on the turn, I really like the 3bet. I guess you find out pretty quickly if you're beat by 88 or 55.

I'm curious - James, would you have raised 55 preflop in that spot? Maybe 88. Was this 50/100?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against that lineup, I'd limp 55 and raise 88. I'd also limp K8s and K5s.
-James

[skp]

[ QUOTE ]
K8s is def most and K5s wouldn't surprise me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. But if he flopped two pairs, I think he raises right away. So, when he raises only on the turn, the two pair hand that is possible is just the K5 (assuming the 5 came on the turn...I can't remember now).

All the same, it's unlikely that he has two pairs.

[mike l.]

"But if he flopped two pairs, I think he raises right away."

your analysis of button's play on this hand is excellent. i wonder if it's how it really panned out. im wondering what button had. i want to say KT.

[Paluka]

I demand results on this hand.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
I demand results on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that.

[Peter_rus]

Sorry for stup question, but what is hijack? MP3 checks, CO folds i can't see any positions between them.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for stup question, but what is hijack? MP3 checks, CO folds i can't see any positions between them.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's what the position before the cutoff is called anymore in here.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
I demand results on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fourbet and he folded. I had 55 for the flopped set. As to why I didn't raise the flop, the flop bettor was a super donk and was guaranteed to bet the turn also.
-James

[Peter_rus]

So it's MP3 and BK mistaken writing 'mp3 checks'?

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I demand results on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fourbet and he folded. I had 55 for the flopped set. As to why I didn't raise the flop, the flop bettor was a super donk and was guaranteed to bet the turn also.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding?

The bb wqas most definately not a donk. No way.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I demand results on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fourbet and he folded. I had 55 for the flopped set. As to why I didn't raise the flop, the flop bettor was a super donk and was guaranteed to bet the turn also.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding?

The bb wqas most definately not a donk. No way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who was the BB? Are we not thinking of the same person here? I'm speaking from memory. I have no numbers or anything on this site, but I clearly remember this player to be overaggressive.

Also, the board on the flop was completely drawless. In fact, regardless of who is in the hand I can't see any good reason not to wait til the turn. It's very possible that at the time of the hand I thought it was EP who bet and not the BB, but regardless, I like my turn raise.
-James

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, the board on the flop was completely drawless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly why i wasn't liking my KJ all that much. it usually takes a pretty damn good hand to bet into 4 guys on a drawless board like that.

[mike l.]

i cant stand your 4 bet here. waiting until the river is clearly the correct play because youre against a player that's good enough to fold a K against your 4 bet.

youre right about waiting for the turn w/ the 55 though.

[Nightwish]

SB, BB, UTG, UTG+1, MP1, MP2, MP3, Hijack, CO, Button

[Peter_rus]

I thought UTG+2 is also take a place here:-)

Thanks for explanation.

[Turning Stone Pro]

"It's what the position before the cutoff is called anymore in here."

Your game is much stronger than your grammar.

TSP

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
i cant stand your 4 bet here. waiting until the river is clearly the correct play because youre against a player that's good enough to fold a K against your 4 bet.

youre right about waiting for the turn w/ the 55 though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah mike, BK and I spoke about that, but given his incredibly strange line, what range of hands do you put him on? We have a history of playing back at eacchother very aggressively, and I thought it very possible that he could have something like KXd, or 2 pair which I'll likely get a ton of action from right here and now without waiting for any cards that may scare him(or me) on the river. At the time, I was soooo confused by his line that I figured he either had a monster like 222 or K5s or K8s and really couldn't put him on anything else...especially a decent sized king because I was "sure" he'd have raised that pf. I agree that waiting til the river is clearly right if the action goes something like bet-raise three bet, but his overcall reraise screamed great strength, and I wanted to get it while the getting was good.

That said, I am still not sure whether waiting would've been better or not. It's really tough.
-James

[mike l.]

"given his incredibly strange line, what range of hands do you put him on?"

maybe nothing. maybe a set of 8s or something bizarre. A8? a king seems possible. something like KTs. maybe 76s? doesnt seem too likely. nothing would be my first choice and a pair of kings would be my second. like KQ. basically nothing you would want to 4 bet against him with. best plan would be to call the turn and then raise him on the river.

"We have a history of playing back at eacchother very aggressively,"

there's no way to say this without it sounding rude, but that's just silly.

"I figured he either had a monster like 222"

yeah that makes some sense. i think he'd have raised the flop with that. seems like even if he has that waiting until the river may guarantee you at least 3 bets on that street.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
"given his incredibly strange line, what range of hands do you put him on?"

maybe nothing. maybe a set of 8s or something bizarre. A8? a king seems possible. something like KTs. maybe 76s? doesnt seem too likely. nothing would be my first choice and a pair of kings would be my second. like KQ. basically nothing you would want to 4 bet against him with. best plan would be to call the turn and then raise him on the river.

"We have a history of playing back at eacchother very aggressively,"

there's no way to say this without it sounding rude, but that's just silly.

"I figured he either had a monster like 222"

yeah that makes some sense. i think he'd have raised the flop with that. seems like even if he has that waiting until the river may guarantee you at least 3 bets on that street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if it sounds silly, but as two thinking players who know eachother, we make ego plays at one another from time to time. We played a hand where i raised the turn with queen high and he three bet me with ace high. I've bluff raised him and been caught a few times. But, all of this adds up to the fact that it's possible that he is just completely bluffing, in which case my 4 bet is of course not good.

I guess in the heat of the moment, I was just so sure that I had the best hand that I wanted to get bets in right there, as I couldn't for the life of me put him on a hand he'd three-bet and then go ahead and fold. I'm still not convinced that more than 50% of the time he'll have a hand that won't call or even reraise, which is the percentage that I need to make this fourbet correct. Not exactly arguing with you here, just kinda thinking aloud.
-James

[mike l.]

"Not exactly arguing with you here, just kinda thinking aloud."

im relieved because i dont ever want to argue with you. your thinking is very sound. i wouldve spazzed and 4 bet the turn as well and been excited thinking id really got my buddy this time.. but then id have been deflated when he mucked.

anyway for some reason (meaning learning the history of you two playing each other) all this talk has got me wondering if maybe bk's best line wouldnt have been to wait until the river and checkraise there or stop n go/3 bet the river. i mean i know now he was beat, but pretending i dont know that i think i like those plays more now than his turn call/3 bet.

[BigSkiRace]

Yea, I would raise the flop if you got a solid player on the button, and then when you spike a king on the flop I would raise, checked around on turn, I bet